Same Sex Adoption Better than Abortion...right?

[808Catholic]

He wrote those words to the 4 monasteries in Argentina when he was Cardinal there, urging them to pray for the legislators who were preparing to vote on same-sex-marriage and same-sex adoption. He was concerned that the lawmakers would “act in error” in accordance with the plan of “the Father of Lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God”. A proposed bill in 2010 giving same-sex couples the opportunity to “marry” and adopt children would “seriously damage the family”, he said (in addition to what was already provided).

Not disputing your point of view but perhaps it can be looked at another way. Would you allow that the Pope is speaking to homosexual couples and asking them not to adopt children??

When the Church relies on secular law to enforce God’s law, we get what we have: compromise. There is no compromise with God’s law. Yet politicians compromise all the time to put a law in place. Yes, we pray for God’s Will to be done but we shouldn’t place all our hopes on politicians doing what’s morally right.

 

[estesbob]

To whom do you think the Pope was directing this statement?

He was addressing a referendum in Argentina to legalize homosexual adoption

 

[ahs]

Not disputing your point of view but perhaps it can be looked at another way. Would you allow that the Pope is speaking to homosexual couples and asking them not to adopt children??

When the Church relies on secular law to enforce God’s law, we get what we have: compromise. There is no compromise with God’s law. Yet politicians compromise all the time to put a law in place. Yes, we pray for God’s Will to be done but we shouldn’t place all our hopes on politicians doing what’s morally right.

Absolutely! And I am under the impression that estesbob was writing in this light as well when he responded to BorninMarch.

 

[PolarGuy]

Sorry to arrive late.

I know 2 gay men who are white. They adopted 2 black baby girls who were born drug addicted; these 2 babies were placed in foster care after being found, wearing only diapers, in the middle of the crack den their drugged out bioparents were busted in one January night.

Who the heck am I to argue with what these men did? They adopted 2 unwanted babies.

Could these 2 girls have been adopted by John & Jane Whitebread? All I know is that they weren’t. Heck, Mr. & Mrs. Whitebread often don’t want to adopt black babies. All I know is that these 2 men did more for those 2 kids than anyone else did - including the Catholic Church!

Look, I know the ideal is a 2 parent family. My mom died when I was 10. Does that mean I should be allowed a new mom? Life doesn’t work that way, and we can’t always get the ideal result.

I’m aware I’m gonna get flamed for this and I don’t care - those 2 gay men I know have a lot more in common with the Good Samaritan, and embody the concept of loving ones neighbor, than a LOT of so-called Catholics who I’ve observed over the years, including on this board.

 

[808Catholic]

Sorry to arrive late.

I know 2 gay men who are white. They adopted 2 black baby girls who were born drug addicted; these 2 babies were placed in foster care after being found, wearing only diapers, in the middle of the crack den their drugged out bioparents were busted in one January night.

Who the heck am I to argue with what these men did? They adopted 2 unwanted babies.

Could these 2 girls have been adopted by John & Jane Whitebread? All I know is that they weren’t. Heck, Mr. & Mrs. Whitebread often don’t want to adopt black babies. All I know is that these 2 men did more for those 2 kids than anyone else did - including the Catholic Church!

Look, I know the ideal is a 2 parent family. My mom died when I was 10. Does that mean I should be allowed a new mom? Life doesn’t work that way, and we can’t always get the ideal result.

I’m aware I’m gonna get flamed for this and I don’t care - those 2 gay men I know have a lot more in common with the Good Samaritan, and embody the concept of loving ones neighbor, than a LOT of so-called Catholics who I’ve observed over the years, including on this board.

I pray that God help ease the anger in your heart.

No one is saying Catholics are perfect or that all homosexuals are evil. No one.

 

[estesbob]

Sorry to arrive late.

I know 2 gay men who are white. They adopted 2 black baby girls who were born drug addicted; these 2 babies were placed in foster care after being found, wearing only diapers, in the middle of the crack den their drugged out bioparents were busted in one January night.

Who the heck am I to argue with what these men did? They adopted 2 unwanted babies.

Could these 2 girls have been adopted by John & Jane Whitebread? All I know is that they weren’t. Heck, Mr. & Mrs. Whitebread often don’t want to adopt black babies. All I know is that these 2 men did more for those 2 kids than anyone else did - including the Catholic Church!

Look, I know the ideal is a 2 parent family. My mom died when I was 10. Does that mean I should be allowed a new mom? Life doesn’t work that way, and we can’t always get the ideal result.

I’m aware I’m gonna get flamed for this and I don’t care - those 2 gay men I know have a lot more in common with the Good Samaritan, and embody the concept of loving ones neighbor, than a LOT of so-called Catholics who I’ve observed over the years, including on this board.

No one is going to flame you. But the simple truth is these children would be better off with a mother and father and not being exposed to an openly sinful lifestyle on a daily basis.

 

[PolarGuy]

Thank you for not flaming me, Bob…yet I note that I’ve already gotten “i’ll pray for the anger in your heart!” I agree with you about the ideal…but life’s not ideal.

808, who said I was angry? I admit disgust at Christians who act unchristian, but the world is too full of those to get bent out of shape about!

 

[PolarGuy]

Also, in my real world case, the 2 black babies HAD the “ideal” parents, i.e., a mom & dad - who happened to be drug addicts who lost custody of their kids. When we start taking about “ideal” parents, none of any us are “ideal,” if you think about it.

 

[808Catholic]

Thank you for not flaming me, Bob…yet I note that I’ve already gotten “i’ll pray for the anger in your heart!” I agree with you about the ideal…but life’s not ideal.

808, who said I was angry? I admit disgust at Christians who act unchristian, but the world is too full of those to get bent out of shape about!

Your post I responded to sounded angry to me. If not, accept the grace of God that comes from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Theo520]

Candidly, you do sound angry and you are the one using the term “ideal” to describe birth parents.

Perhaps one could say “it’s ideal for a baby to grow up with their birth family, assuming it is loving and stable”. You are right that nobody should ever label the individual parents as ideal, an impossible goal.

Also, in my real world case, the 2 black babies HAD the “ideal” parents, i.e., a mom & dad - who happened to be drug addicts who lost custody of their kids. When we start taking about “ideal” parents, none of any us are “ideal,” if you think about it.

 

[PolarGuy]

Theo, how I “sound” is a complete non sequitur! The OP asked if same sex adoption was better than abortion - as if anyone would seriously think it wasn’t!

Further, I’d postulate that many, many people who trash, for example, same sex adoption, probably have very little interaction with anyone openly gay (let alone with gays who adopt) or for that matter with the adoption “system” in the US or it’s alternatives (ie some states still have orphanages).

Seriously, who’s done more good: the 2 gay men I know? Or the loving, sweet hetero couple who attend church and who want to adopt - so long as the baby is white? Food for thought…

 

[estesbob]

Theo, how I “sound” is a complete non sequitur! The OP asked if same sex adoption was better than abortion - as if anyone would seriously think it wasn’t!

Further, I’d postulate that many, many people who trash, for example, same sex adoption, probably have very little interaction with anyone openly gay (let alone with gays who adopt) or for that matter with the adoption “system” in the US or it’s alternatives (ie some states still have orphanages).

Seriously, who’s done more good: the 2 gay men I know? Or the loving, sweet hetero couple who attend church and who want to adopt - so long as the baby is white? Food for thought…

You’re setting up a false dilemma. There is no problem finding a traditional man and woman couple To adopt black babies . Discussing the mythical perfect gay couples and the mythical racist white couple adopting black children does not advance the discussion at all.

 

[PolarGuy]

First off, Bob, there’s nothing “mythical” about anything I’m saying. I guess I really have no way of verifying it, other than to post their names and addresses (which I won’t do). Further, there’s no false dilemma here because in reality no one except these fellows wanted the / babies.

To the contrary, Part of why I think examples like this are very much worth discussing is that they force us to confront certain realities: that gays will adopt babies no one else wants; that these particular fellows stepped up when no hetero couples did; they remind us that we ourselves individually aren’t adopting when they are; and they are modern-day good Samaritans: remember that Jesus used that example because the Samaritans were reviled in their day (as gays get on this board?) but the Samaritan in the parable nevertheless acted better than the priest did. There’s a very powerful lesson there for all of us; it’s certainly not some “false dilemma.”

 

[adamhovey1988]

So I have noticed two trends in CAF posts regarding SSA and Abortion…

Most replies to the topic regarding Cardinal Schonborn’s comments regarding stable same-sex unions have expressed trepidation; the only ones who haven’t, other than one exception, aren’t even Catholic, or who openly dissent regarding Church teachings regarding homosexual acts. “There’s nothing good about homosexual relationships” seems to be the consensus (again, besides posts from people who I know don’t agree with the Church teaching anyway).

Yet, as I pointed out in that same topic, it’s also a consensus that fornication is a lesser evil than abortion, and therefore, completely removing the stigma against unwed parenting is a price most are willing to pay to prevent abortions. Often, any attempt to suggest being an unwed single parent is a bad idea, such as “I don’t feel comfortable attending a baby shower for an unwed mother” is met by a chorus of “But at least she didn’t have an abortion!” or even “It’s judgemental Pharisees like you who drive these young women into the abortion clinics!”

Now, I know that being a single parent is not itself a sin, even if the sex act that led to parenthood was. But I’ve noticed the “at least she didn’t have an abortion” mantra persists here, even when people are posting about single mothers who didn’t repent of their fornicating lifestyle, but keep having kids out of wedlock – that they should be commended for “choosing life”. Even a post about a single mother who was found unfit to care for her children by CPS and is pregnant yet again – “at least she didn’t have an abortion”.

So…here’s the question, What if a woman pregnant out of wedlock stated that she was going to either (1) have her child adopted by a couple in a same-sex relationship or (2) have an abortion?

It’s strange, that so many posters have stated that even growing up in a series of foster homes is preferable to being brought up by a same-sex couple. But no one has dared say, so far, that a child is better off DEAD than being brought up in such a situation.

Of course, this is a hypothetical. Other options are the child being brought up by a heterosexual couple, or the woman raising the child herself. But what if she said. “I know I can’t raise this child myself. Adam and Steve are the only two people I could trust to raise the child. None of my heterosexual friends can do it, and I don’t want to give the child away to a stranger. I’d rather have an abortion than take the chance my child will be abused by foster or adoptive parents.”

So, which really is the Ultimate Sin for a Catholic? Engaging in homosexual acts, or having an abortion?

ETA: Please do NOT bring up the bogey man of “Adam and Steve are more likely to sexually abuse the kid than a heterosexual couple, anyway!” Let’s say the child is a girl, and the two men have very strong SSA, and wouldn’t be tempted sexually at all by the child. (It’s sad that I even have to make that comment, but I know many on CAF gleefully believe the “most gays are child molesters too” stereotype.)

Association fallacy not worthy of discussion

 

[estesbob]

First off, Bob, there’s nothing “mythical” about anything I’m saying. I guess I really have no way of verifying it, other than to post their names and addresses (which I won’t do). Further, there’s no false dilemma here because in reality no one except these fellows wanted the / babies.

To the contrary, Part of why I think examples like this are very much worth discussing is that they force us to confront certain realities: that gays will adopt babies no one else wants; that these particular fellows stepped up when no hetero couples did; they remind us that we ourselves individually aren’t adopting when they are; and they are modern-day good Samaritans: remember that Jesus used that example because the Samaritans were reviled in their day (as gays get on this board?) but the Samaritan in the parable nevertheless acted better than the priest did. There’s a very powerful lesson there for all of us; it’s certainly not some “false dilemma.”

Absolutely no evidence whatsoever that homosexuals are any more likely to adopt special-needs children than anybody else . In fact it is a travesty that this is even allowed to happen- the attitude seems to be “well these kids lives are messed up anyway so can’t hurt too much putting them with homosexuals”

It is probable that sometime in the next year to 18 months my daughter and her “spouse” will adopt a child or have one via artificial insemination and I will be faced with the situation of having a grandchild raised by a same-sex couples . And there is no doubt in my mind that this will be a terrible disservice to this childv and I will have to work extra hard part of this child’s life so they can at least have one male family member in their life as they are growing up. But I can never replace the father they were denied And it is sad that our culture allows us to happen but in our culture children are pawns to be used to push far left wing political agendas, whether it is “empowering” women by allowing them to kill their child or placing children with homosexual couples in a vain attempt to try to normalize disordered and sinful behavior

 

[Theo520]

Theo, how I “sound” is a complete non sequitur! The OP asked if same sex adoption was better than abortion - as if anyone would seriously think it wasn’t!

LOL, you’re the one who brought up tone

Further, I’d postulate that many, many people who trash, for example, same sex adoption, probably have very little interaction with anyone openly gay (let alone with gays who adopt) or for that matter with the adoption “system” in the US or it’s alternatives (ie some states still have orphanages).

Though ‘trash’ is stronger wording than I would use, what would you expect in a Catholic forum? I’m sure you are right on the second point.

Seriously, who’s done more good: the 2 gay men I know? Or the loving, sweet hetero couple who attend church and who want to adopt - so long as the baby is white? Food for thought…

I know you are projecting if you think Christians only want to adopt white babies. I’ve read interracial adoptions have been deemed a trend/fad. I also recall reading of pushback from some black leaders that black babies were going to white parents. These leaders objected to colored babies going to stable loving families, go figure.

 

[PolarGuy]

No, theo, I did NOT bring up “tone;” I made a pro-gay adoption post and got told that a poster would pray for me because I was angry; then I got more “uh, yeah, you are angry!”

For that matter, if I was angry…so what? Whether my posts have merit is irrelevant to whether I’m angry or not.

 

[ahs]

No, theo, I did NOT bring up “tone;” I made a pro-gay adoption post and got told that a poster would pray for me because I was angry; then I got more “uh, yeah, you are angry!”

For that matter, if I was angry…so what? Whether my posts have merit is irrelevant to whether I’m angry or not.

Correct. Emotion is not relevant to whether something is true.

Sorry to arrive late.

I know 2 gay men who are white. They adopted 2 black baby girls who were born drug addicted; these 2 babies were placed in foster care after being found, wearing only diapers, in the middle of the crack den their drugged out bioparents were busted in one January night…

That’s wonderful that these two babies were rescued from this situation. Why is it relevant that their adoptive parents were gay?
I would say that, while the children were rescued from a more horrible situation, they were placed in an un-ideal situation…one which is NOT what is best for children. Shouldn’t we push for what is BEST for children? God bless those gay men for caring about these girls. But if we really care about these babies, why are we not pushing for what is BEST for them, and being satisfied with something that isn’t?
Why didn’t those gay men help seek out a mother/father household for those children? [It is in answering this question that I have witnessed children being reduced to a commodity…“something” we have a “right” to. I trust this isn’t the case for your gay friends.)

Look, I know the ideal is a 2 parent family. My mom died when I was 10. Does that mean I should be allowed a new mom? Life doesn’t work that way, and we can’t always get the ideal result.

You are quite right. But why does that mean we should support people purposefully putting children into a situation which is not what is best for children? Of course things are going to happen in life to make things less “ideal”. But if we are going to actively support something for children, shouldn’t it be what is BEST for them?

…those 2 gay men I know have a lot more in common with the Good Samaritan, and embody the concept of loving ones neighbor, than a LOT of so-called Catholics who I’ve observed over the years, including on this board.

And as you noted yourself, none of that really matters when it comes to determining truth. Truth is true, regardless.

 

[estesbob]

No, theo, I did NOT bring up “tone;” I made a pro-gay adoption post and got told that a poster would pray for me because I was angry; then I got more “uh, yeah, you are angry!”

For that matter, if I was angry…so what? Whether my posts have merit is irrelevant to whether I’m angry or not.

A Catholics we should always turn to the Church when faced with issues like this:

As experience has shown, the absence of sexual complementarity in these unions creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood. Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development. This is gravely immoral and in open contradiction to the principle, recognized also in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, that the best interests of the child, as the weaker and more vulnerable party, are to be the paramount consideration in every case.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

We can not support evil even when we do it in the name of tolerance and compassion