Same Sex Attraction and the Abuse Crisis

[glorybe]

It’s very clear from extensive research on prisoners that heterosexual men, when given no other outlet than other men, will perform homosexual acts, returning to exclusively heterosexual sex once released back into society. That is not the same thing as having a homosexual orientation.

Priests are not in prison. They are surrounded by women all the time and many women would love to have their personal attention, trust me, I’ve seen it, I worked in the Church. If a normal male priest was going to betray Jesus, his Church, and his vows, it would be with a woman, not a boy past the age of puberty, which 81% of the abuse cases were. That is homosexual acts. As long as people are refusing to acknowledge the real problem in our Church with abuses (and cover ups), nothing will ever change.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

If a normal male priest was going to betray Jesus, his Church, and his vows, it would be with a woman, not a boy past the age of puberty,

Sure they would. It’s not really sex, right? Aren’t we always saying that about homosexual acts to defend marriage between a man and a woman, or suggest that real love can’t exist between two people of the same sex?

Subconsciously, if it’s not really sex, it’s barely a sin, especially if they aren’t actually gay.

 

[glorybe]

We’re talking about gay men with children.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

How do you know they are gay men? Is McCarrick a flaming queen behind closed doors or he is just another entitled member of the heirarchy?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

We will probably never know what the root of the problem is because we can’t rely on predators and sociopaths open and honest about this.

 

[glorybe]

How do you know they are gay men? Is McCarrick a flaming queen behind closed doors or he is just another entitled member of the heirarchy?

Simple: heterosexual men do not have sex with other males.

 

[Thorolfr]

This is indicating quite clearly that it’s a homosexual abuse problem within the church.

Many people here in CAF seem to think that the sexual abuse problem in the Church is a homosexual abuse problem and that the solution is to root out all homosexuals from the priesthood. So, since there have been numerous reported cases in the news over the past year starting with Harvey Weinstein about powerful men in Hollywood, politics, corporate America, etc. who were sexually harassing and abusing women, do you think that the solution would be to root all heterosexual men out of Hollywood, politics, and corporate America to prevent any predatory heterosexual men from harassing any more women?

 

[ewohdrol]

Interestly with the recent abuse cases in Australia it has not been anywhere near those statistics. Many females were also abused.

I can’t remember the exact numbers (male vs female) but it seems to much higher stats if abuse towards boys in the US.

Quite a few from a girls school have since died by their own hands.

It is heartbreaking.

IMO it is not necessarily a homosexual problem. Abusers have known the church will not really penalise them and that they will have open access to many children. It’s a no brainer for paedophiles or hebaphilies (attraction after puberty) to flock.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

heterosexual men do not have sex with other males.

It happens though. I’m not going to skip over bisexuality but I suspect that isn’t what you are referring to. Young men experiment, older men decide to try it once, it can be part of a culture (it’s usually exploitive, though), and, once again, it can be justified as “not really sex” so it’s “not really wrong.” I forget the percentage of men who have had a same sex encounter. It’s pretty high.

 

[Mtdobbs]

Simple: heterosexual men do not have sex with other males

This is kind of inaccurate. Studies indicate that the majority of prison inmates that commit male on male sexual acts are heterosexual. They were heterosexual before the entered prison and are heterosexual when they leave. If less than 5-10% of the population considers themselves homosexual but as high as 50% of men in some prisons commit homosexual acts, how do we account for this mathematical discrepancy? People will look for any outlet that’s available to them. Males are only available to males in prison and historically men have predominantly been available to males in the priesthood, seminary, monasteries etc.

Yes there are homosexual priests and yes the majority of the abuse acts were “male on male” sexual acts of molestation, rape etc, this does not automatically make these crimes based on homosexuality but crimes that would be easiest to cover up. Crimes of circumstances. Crimes of power and authority. Crimes of easiest opportunity.

 

[ConcernedConvert]

Absolutely not. Whether it’s classified as normal sex or not doesn’t mean people can utilize it to justify homosexual acts. If you know a catholic that is justifying homosexual acts like this, you need to give them a good copy of the Bible and the catechism and pray for them. You can call it what you want but use that to justify them absolutely not. you’re arguing points that have proven to go against Catholic teachings. I really do not understand why there is a group of people who don’t see this as at least a major part of the problem, the facts are there, the wisdom of the church teachings and rules are there, the evidence of a homosexual culture within the leadership of the church is there… yet it can’t possibly have anything to do with homosexuality? It sounds like personal or political beliefs are coming forward in place of church beliefs and teachings.
Turning a blind eye or refusing to call the problem what it is, will only lead to future problems of the same nature.

 

[ConcernedConvert]

Simple read my post from earlier. The circumstances, dynamics and environment are the root of these discrepancies. Prison doesn’t compare laterally with non prison.

 

[therese1998]

a child has no way of processing what has happened.

Indeed. Research is very clear on the trauma of children and adolescents being sexualized earlier than their psyches are developed for. Let’s also remember that these are children who have grown up in the truth of the Church…they have been taught about the danger both of sexual expression outside of marriage and of homosexual activity (for those who were male). The emotional conflict and feelings of guilt (of which they, of course, bear none) must have also been very damaging, as well. The actions of these priests and bishops were absolutely evil.

He lived a tortured life vacillating between heterosexuality and homosexuality.

I am so, so sorry for this man’s pain, for the pain of all the victims. I will fast and pray.

(I often wonder how God will deal with those victims when they come to see Him? It haunts me so…)

There is legitimate hope, first in His Mercy and second in the issue of full consent, both in a literal sense and in a spiritual sense. Pray. Meditate on the Divine Mercy image.

These men have access to other outlets

I doubt it. They have access to who is available, as do all predators. And predators are opportunistic…this is very clearly evidenced in the literature. And remember that plenty of predatory priests were involved with both male and female children. That some priests of homosexual orientation are predatory, I have no doubt. That some priests of heterosexual orientation will accept homosexual actions in the lack of available female victims, I also don’t doubt. It’s also possible that predatory priests are of bisexual orientation. The important adjective is predatory. It dominates the actions of the individual and defines any other adjective in the equation.

appearance

Exactly. Predatory priests may also be intelligent. Does that mean intelligent men are predators? Predatory priests may also be overwhelmingly oldest siblings. Does that mean we should bar oldest siblings from ministry? I think the focus on homosexuality is a dangerous distraction from the truth of the predator aspect.

Given that not all men of homosexual orientation are predators, but all predators look to take advantage of the vulnerable, I think, again, that the most important adjective in the equation is “predatory” (and, yes, exploitative).

 

[therese1998]

It can be both homosexual and predatory and exploitive.

Yes, very true. It can also be Caucasian and predatory and exploitative. In fact, most men who commit acts of pedophilia/pederasty are Caucasian. Should we bar Caucasians from ministry?

I think we are, but that doesn’t mean we should avoid the others which factor deeply into the causation of the crimes

Okay, so what’s the evidence that men of homosexual orientation are predatory at a higher rate than men of heterosexual orientation when calculation is adjusted for the higher exposure to males in priestly life?

ours shuns them while pretending not to.

trust me, I’ve seen it, I worked in the Church

Yes, I know there are women who are willing to have affairs with priests. I work in the Church as well and am neither naive nor ignorant. Tell me, if a man is a sexual predator, does having sex with a willing victim satisfy his sexual needs? Or is there a need to dominate, to subdue, to control? Is it thrilling to a predator to have consensual sex with a socially acceptable sex partner or is it more satisfying to have sex with a “wrong” partner?

acknowledge the real problem in our Church with abuses (and cover ups), nothing will ever change.

Yes, exactly.

we can’t rely on predators and sociopaths open and honest about this.

true

heterosexual men do not have sex with other males.

I think you are incorrect on this. There is solid evidence that a proportion of men (and women) of heterosexual orientation experiment with homosexuality at times, and go on to live lives of exclusive heterosexual activity. We do not consider them to be homosexual based on temporary homosexual activity. We consider them to be homosexual based on their level of attraction and preference. And, as said prior, we have not addressed the issue of bi-sexuality.

paedophiles or hebaphilies (attraction after puberty) to flock.

Although I believe that the sexual abuse crisis in the church is not primarily a homosexual issue, there IS evidence that there is a subculture of homosexuality within the church and that this subculture is supportive not only of homosexuality but of sexual acts with children and they do not appear to differentiate between the gravity of the two intrinsically disordered acts. I don’t deny that this is a really big problem and needs to be rooted out. Just wanted to clarify that.

 

[therese1998]

Yes there are homosexual priests and yes the majority of the abuse acts were “male on male” sexual acts of molestation, rape etc, this does not automatically make these crimes based on homosexuality but crimes that would be easiest to cover up. Crimes of circumstances. Crimes of power and authority. Crimes of easiest opportunity.

Exactly

I really do not understand why there is a group of people who don’t see this as at least a major part of the problem,

Yes, that’s pretty clear…

Turning a blind eye or refusing to call the problem what it is, will only lead to future problems of the same nature.

Can you also agree that ignoring predatory behavior and calling it homosexual behavior can also lead to problems of the same nature in the future?

Prison doesn’t compare laterally with non prison.

And yet this information is used as normative (with caution) by secular psychologists and psychiatrists who (like it or not) are highly trained in this area. How do you account for this?

 

[Mtdobbs]

I read your earlier post and in it you described the priest scandal, in my opinion, While trying to describe prison experience

Prison life is completely different than normal societal living, even in the best of prisons. There is a dominance and assertive culture due to a fear for safety and many other pressures.

This prison life mentality you are referring to in your quote is identical to how the priest abuse scandal was able to take place. Dominance. Assertiveness. A culture of fear of superiors. Pressures. Etc.

In describing the prison system, you also precisely described how the priest scandal was able to maintain itself.

 

[Mtdobbs]

I couldn’t agree more with some of your statements. Demonizong homosexuality instead of disordered predatory sexual acts adds more victims. The abuse victims, the priests whom are innocent and now all homosexuals who seem to be getting blamed for it. A group that has already felt hated and ostracized are now being the scapegoats for something that should not be attributed to them.

 

[glorybe]

Yes, I know there are women who are willing to have affairs with priests. I work in the Church as well and am neither naive nor ignorant. Tell me, if a man is a sexual predator, does having sex with a willing victim satisfy his sexual needs? Or is there a need to dominate, to subdue, to control? Is it thrilling to a predator to have consensual sex with a socially acceptable sex partner or is it more satisfying to have sex with a “wrong” partner?

If a man is a sexual predator he is a criminal. If this criminal is a priest, that’s a double whammy, he has betrayed Christ, His Church, his vows, his victims, his parents, and all faithful Catholics. Who gives a hoot what is “thrilling” to him?!!

 

[therese1998]

Who gives a hoot what is “thrilling” to him?!!

How about because it is what drives their behavior/acts of predation on vulnerable victims?!?!?!

 

[glorybe]

Sexual predators do not belong in the priesthood.