Same sex attraction

[BlueShadow123]

BlueShadow

You obviously are trapped in your mind not being able to understand that not everybody has the same belief you do.

As you are trapped in yours by believing that as long as there is no God sin does not exist.

The people who do not believe in God do not believe sin exists.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

The god I believe in is not cruel.

Can you explain to us who is or what is “god” to you?

. . . . . .

 

[InSearchofGrace]

The people who do not believe in God do not believe sin exists.

People may deny God but they have a concept of wrongdoing. They just don’t call wrongdoing as sin. They may not believe in reward / punishment in heaven / hell in life after death. But there is a natural law, derived from right reason, that guides men in life on earth.

As a self-described Christian, do you believe this?

. . . . . .

 

[Seeker2010]

You say you don’t desire homosexual activity, but you find justification for it and have no problem with it being promoted.

You are correct, unless by ‘promoted’ you mean knowingly trying to influence heterosexuals to act homosexual. I don’t know how much of that happens, but I’m sure it’s greater than zero, and just because I think homosexuals have a right to be homosexual (and to marry) doesn’t mean I won’t call them out when they behave badly.

Basing on your posts in this thread and/or other threads on the subject, you align yourself with the push for gay ‘marriage’ in all states, and consensual non-monogamy or sex with multiple partners. You don’t find anything wrong with any of these, because, as you rationalize it, nobody is harmed.

Correct, once again. Are you suggesting that these things should be criminalized?

The difficulty is, even if you do not seem to believe in God, you state that God created same sex desire in men and women.

I do believe in a god, just not the one described to us in the bible. I believe he created the laws of physics, caused the big bang, but it doesn’t seem he interacts with creation, so it just does what it does, which is, inevitably, to create intelligent life that souls can attach to. For what purpose? I dunno, some kind of school. Why the lessons can’t be learned whilst on the ‘other side’ is a mystery, I can only speculate.

The desire to steal is in some men. Would you attribute it to God who put the desire in man? If a man acts on the desire to steal, and gets away with it, do you blame or give the credit to God?

The desire to steal is in ALL men if they’re desperate enough. But stealing has a victim, someone whom is harmed, whereas same sex activities, assuming consenting adult humans, do not.

I gave the example of the disordered desire to commit incest with a consenting family member in my previous post. Do you blame God that these two consenting family members cross that line?

I don’t think theres a sexuality that drives someone to incest, in cases where it occurs it’s likely highly contextual. Circumstances spun out of control. It’s not exactly widespread.

You know that your analogy about an owner who puts a steak on the floor where his hungry dog would surely go for it, then punishes the dog, is not a good one. Don’t you agree that
Man is capable of critical thought and action to a higher level above the ability of beasts, beyond immediate gratification or pleasure?
. . . . . .

I do agree with that, but I was not comparing man with canine. I was pointing out that intentionally creating a situation where a superior being creates a desire, and then punishes the inferior being for acting on that is cruelty. Because it is.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Seeker

*I do agree with that, but I was not comparing man with canine. I was pointing out that intentionally creating a situation where a superior being creates a desire, and then punishes the inferior being for acting on that is cruelty. Because it is. *

This is the fatal flaw in your argument: God does not create us with a desire for homosexual acts. We arrive at those desires by various ways, including temptations of Satan, not God. Moreover, God urges us to overcome those desires, which is hardly cruel. Failing to overcome those desires, acting them out, and then getting punished for them … is hardly cruel. We have been cautioned to act in our own interests. Refusing to act puts us in a situation where actions have consequences, as any judge will be glad to remind you when you murder someone and get thrown in the slammer. Punishment by itself is not cruel … unless the punishment does not fit the crime. But if you do the crime, you must do the time.

Homosexuals are not exempt from the sin of fornicating with another man … as heterosexuals are not exempt from the sin of fornicating with a woman.

 

[BlueShadow123]

People may deny God but they have a concept of wrongdoing. They just don’t call wrongdoing as sin. They may not believe in reward / punishment in heaven / hell in life after death. But there is a natural law, derived from right reason, that guides men in life on earth.

As a self-described Christian, do you believe this?

. . . . . .

Obviously but they don’t believe all things are wrong like the bible says. Such as homosexuality.

 

[Seeker2010]

God does not create us with a desire for homosexual acts.

I disagree.

Some humans are born with the intrinsic desire to copulate with members of their own gender. That is a fact. It has been so since before we started keeping records, likely since humanity evolved as a species. It is inherent to the species, and was designed into the species by the creator of the species. Whether or not the creator took a direct hand in designing homo sapiens, or merely let the laws of physics and biology drive it independently is a question I don’t have an opinion about. Either way, homosexuality is intrinsic to humanity.

As marriage is a human invention, so is the idea of fornication, whether hetero or homo.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Correct, once again. Are you suggesting that these things should be criminalized?

I’m not suggesting gay relations and consensual non-monogamy should be criminalized. Gay ‘marriage’ and polygamous ‘marriage’ which is not far down the slope, should not be legalized, IMO.

The desire to steal is in ALL men if they’re desperate enough. But stealing has a victim, someone whom is harmed, whereas same sex activities, assuming consenting adult humans, do not.

And if the ‘victim’ shines it off, as it is no big deal to him/her, hence no harm is claimed, would you then say it would be like the situation of consenting adult humans who engage in same sex, sex outside marriage, or sex with multiple sex partners?

I don’t think theres a sexuality that drives someone to incest, in cases where it occurs it’s likely highly contextual. Circumstances spun out of control. It’s not exactly widespread.

Incest exists in many cultures. Are you making a qualification now that unnatural relationships that is not widespread should be treated differently from homosexual relationships, which is more widespread? Your argument, if I am correct, is hinged on as long as the parties concerned are consenting adults. A concession to an inconsistency there?

I do agree with that, but I was not comparing man with canine. I was pointing out that intentionally creating a situation where a superior being creates a desire, and then punishes the inferior being for acting on that is cruelty. Because it is.

Man is not without free will and choice. Discounting this is giving an excuse for bad behavior.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Obviously but they don’t believe all things are wrong like the bible says. Such as homosexuality.

That is clear. I asked what your belief is as a Christian. I’m sorry if you have already addressed this upthread and I missed it.

My concern is too many Christians are giving allowances to agnostics/atheists and moral relativists in their march towards homosexual ‘marriage’, and that we are cowed, or worse, made silent, as to our long held belief in Church teachings and values on homosexual behavior.

. . . . .

 

[BlueShadow123]

That is clear. I asked what your belief is as a Christian. I’m sorry if you have already addressed this upthread and I missed it.

My concern is too many Christians are giving allowances to agnostics/atheists and moral relativists in their march towards homosexual ‘marriage’, and that we are cowed, or worse, made silent, as to our long held belief in Church teachings and values on homosexual behavior.

. . . . .

Well as I have stated many times, I don’t understand why (if they are born gay) God would allow that to happen. That means that those who are gay are not able to fall in love and get married to those that they choose. And that is wrong. That is why if they are born gay, that means God allowed it, and I would have a huge problem with that. Because then it pretty much makes their life suck if they know that they can never fall in love other wise they are committing an abomination. How sad is that? Anyways, what people do in their bedroom (if it is between two consenting adults and not harming anyone) is their business, not mine.

 

[Seeker2010]

Gay ‘marriage’ and polygamous ‘marriage’ which is not far down the slope, should not be legalized, IMO.

It need not be said, but I disagree with you about gay marriage, but haven given too much thought to polyamorous marriage, though I can’t really see any reason why not. (Language nit: PolyGAMY is one man, many women, whereas polyAMORY is 3+ regardless of gender. If it were ever legalized, I cannot imagine it would be pure polygamy.)

And if the ‘victim’ shines it off, as it is no big deal to him/her, hence no harm is claimed, would you then say it would be like the situation of consenting adult humans who engage in same sex, sex outside marriage, or sex with multiple sex partners?

Yes, then it is no longer theft, but rather a gift. But theft and non-conventional sexual lifestyles are really difficult to compare at any level.

Incest exists in many cultures.

My comments here are, for the most part, about our culture. If there are cultures who have routine incest, that’s a whole different conversation I’m not currently knowledgeable enough to address.

Are you making a qualification now that unnatural relationships that is not widespread should be treated differently from homosexual relationships, which is more widespread? Your argument, if I am correct, is hinged on as long as the parties concerned are consenting adults. A concession to an inconsistency there?

No. With incestuous relationships, the risk of genetic defects to future children justifies restricting the freedom of those who would otherwise choose incest.

Man is not without free will and choice. Discounting this is giving an excuse for bad behavior.

I’m not trying to excuse bad behavior. I’m trying to explain that the behavior in question is not ‘bad’.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Some humans are born with the intrinsic desire to copulate with members of their own gender. That is a fact.

No it isn’t. What is a fact is that the male sexual organ only fits the female sexual organ for the purpose of copulation. It is a fact that every civilization has regarded homosexual acts as shameful and disgusting. It is a fact that children can be corrupted by adult homosexuals (pedophilia) to become adult homosexuals.

It is a fact that no one is born with a gene to commit incest. It is a fact that no one is born with a gene to commit murder. It is a fact that no one is born with a gene to commit suicide. It is a fact that no one is born with a gene to have sex with animals. It is a fact that no one is born with a gene to have slaves. It is a fact that no one is born with a gene to wage war. It is a fact that no one is born with a gene to blow up World Trade buildings.

Those are all facts. Do you agree?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Well as I have stated many times, I don’t understand why (if they are born gay) God would allow that to happen. That means that those who are gay are not able to fall in love and get married to those that they choose. And that is wrong. That is why if they are born gay, that means God allowed it, and I would have a huge problem with that. Because then it pretty much makes their life suck if they know that they can never fall in love other wise they are committing an abomination. How sad is that? Anyways, what people do in their bedroom (if it is between two consenting adults and not harming anyone) is their business, not mine.

BlueShadow,

Please read this: Homosexuality: The Untold Story - The Phantom Gene. It is Part I. Part II is titled The Known Causes of Same Sex Attraction.

I understand your empathy for people suffering from SSA. I know from personal experience, having a homosexual brother that I love, and for whom I pray. If you have time, please contemplate on the following words of Bishop Sheen. There’s a poster, Buffalo, who has offered these words by Bishop Sheen to help Christians understand their role in society. No more eloquent words can be said about Christian love in today’s milieu.

Love is not tolerance
BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
CHRISTIAN LOVE BEARS EVIL, BUT IT DOES NOT TOLERATE IT.

Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.
It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.
The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.
It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.
The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.
Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.
Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.

As for the last sentence in your post, let me say this: nobody is breaking down the bedroom doors or homes of gay couples. What is at issue in these SSA threads is more than the privacy and rights of homosexuals, which they already have. Further, the Christian position has always been to show charity, not hatred, towards homosexuals, to accept them, but not the sin (of homosexual acts). It is against Church position to agree to the legalization of gay ‘marriage’, or to be part of the push for it, because it would have far ranging and profound consequences for society.

. . . . .

 

[Seeker2010]

No it isn’t.

Because you said so? There have been homosexual humans for as long as there have been humans. This despite the fact, as you so observantly pointed out that ‘every civilization has regarded homosexual acts as shameful and disgusting’. They’ve been persecuted, they’ve been prosecuted, they’ve been spat on, executed, legislated, and banned. And yet, they persist. You think anyone would choose that?

Could you just up and decide to be attracted to men? (Apologies, I’m actually assuming you are a male, not even sure why, if I guessed wrong please forgive me.)

It is a trait that is inherent to homo sapiens. It was either intentionally put there by the creator of the species, or at the very least allowed to develop naturally.

What is a fact is that the male sexual organ only fits the female sexual organ for the purpose of copulation.

That’s flat out false. It fits perfectly well in the back door as well as the mouth, though I’m not sure if oral sex can be reasonably labeled as copulation. It also fits pretty well in the palm of a fist, whether ones own or someone else’s. Unless yours is abnormally small or abnormally large, claiming that the only body cavity it fits is the vagina is disingenuous at best, as it’s demonstrably false.

It is a fact that children can be corrupted by adult homosexuals (pedophilia) to become adult homosexuals.

While I find pedophilia to be abhorrent regardless of gender, I’ve never seen any actual scientific evidence that it causes people who otherwise would have been strait to change teams. Since you have declared it a ‘fact’, surely you have links to peer reviewed studies that concluded that.

It is a fact that no one is born with a gene to commit incest. to commit murder. to commit suicide. to have sex with animals to have slaves to wage war to blow up World Trade buildings.

Those are all facts. Do you agree?

Good to know you find homosexuality as the moral equivalent of murder, banging donkeys, having slaves, and 9/11. No wonder you wish to persecute homosexuals, I would too if I thought man-man love was as destructive as flying planes full of innocent civilians into buildings full of innocent civilians. But that’s just me.

Regardless, nobody is suggesting that a ‘gene’ exists for the above behaviors, as they are behaviors, not attributes. However, my argument does not rely on same sex attraction having a genetic basis, even if it’s entirely environmental (though I don’t believe that to be the case), the fact remains that homo sapiens was designed in such a way that under some, yet unknown, set of circumstances, humans become sexually attracted to their own gender. That is an attribute, not a behavior, and an attribute given to them, either directly or indirectly, by their creator.

 

[BlueShadow123]

BlueShadow,

Please read this: Homosexuality: The Untold Story - The Phantom Gene. It is Part I. Part II is titled The Known Causes of Same Sex Attraction.

I understand your empathy for people suffering from SSA. I know from personal experience, having a homosexual brother that I love, and for whom I pray. If you have time, please contemplate on the following words of Bishop Sheen. There’s a poster, Buffalo, who has offered these words by Bishop Sheen to help Christians understand their role in society. No more eloquent words can be said about Christian love in today’s milieu.

Love is not tolerance
BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
CHRISTIAN LOVE BEARS EVIL, BUT IT DOES NOT TOLERATE IT.

Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.
It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.
The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.
It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.
The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.
Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.
Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.

As for the last sentence in your post, let me say this: nobody is breaking down the bedroom doors or homes of gay couples. What is at issue in these SSA threads is more than the privacy and rights of homosexuals, which they already have. Further, the Christian position has always been to show charity, not hatred, towards homosexuals, to accept them, but not the sin (of homosexual acts). It is against Church position to agree to the legalization of gay ‘marriage’, or to be part of the push for it, because it would have far ranging and profound consequences for society.

. . . . .

You didn’t answer anything I said. Re-read my post real quick.
I already know christians are supposed to love everybody and help them, but if they are born that way, why cant they fall in love with a person? Because if they are born gay, then that means God allowed that to happen, which means God is held responsible for their unhappiness and not being able to fall in love or get married.

 

[davidv]

You didn’t answer anything I said. Re-read my post real quick.

It seems you are getting the kind response you give to others.

I already know christians are supposed to love everybody and help them, but if they are born that way, why cant they fall in love with a person? Because if they are born gay, then that means God allowed that to happen, which means God is held responsible for their unhappiness and not being able to fall in love or get married.

Based on this comment, are you sure you understand what Godly love is?

 

[BlueShadow123]

It seems you are getting the kind response you give to others.

Based on this comment, are you sure you understand what Godly love is?

I sure do, but I also hope that God did not allow others to be ‘born gay’. That just screws with their mind. Because then they know they cant ever fall in love with the one they want to be with, without God saying ‘you cant do that. thats an abomination’!

 

[davidv]

I sure do, but I also hope that God did not allow others to be ‘born gay’. That just screws with their mind. Because then they know they cant ever fall in love with the one they want to be with, without God saying ‘you cant do that. thats an abomination’!

Apparently they don’t want to fall in love with God, who is Love and loves better than any abomination.

As much as you think people are happy when they choose to act abominably, they won’t be.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Apparently they don’t want to fall in love with God, who is Love and loves better than any abomination.

As much as you think people are happy when they choose to act abominably, they won’t be.

you don’t get what I’m saying. If somebody is born gay, why would they want to believe in God anyways? God basically says they’ll go to hell for what they feel and what they want to do when he was the one who LET IT HAPPEN.

You don’t get what im saying.
Forget it. Move on from this conversation and forget it.

 

[davidv]

you don’t get what I’m saying. If somebody is born gay, why would they want to believe in God anyways?

First, there is no proof that they are “born that way”.
Second, no matter what problems we have in this life we can overcome them by loving God.

God basically says they’ll go to hell for what they feel

That is not the God I know. Feelings don’t send anyone to hell. Only sin does that.

and what they want to do when he was the one who LET IT HAPPEN.

You don’t get what im saying.
Forget it. Move on from this conversation and forget it.

I do get what you are saying. I am showing you that what you are saying is false compassion.