Same sex attraction

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But if we are considering the presence of parental roles in a child’s life as our criteria, it should follow that having one parental role filled is preferred to having no parental role filled. Thus the orphanage would be the worst case scenario out of three possible scenarios going by the criteria of parental role.
I am not sure that follows. Lots of great people have come out of orphanages - and orphanages secondarily serve as stark reminders for us on a range of topics. The presence and power of true charity, the infinite value of all life, second chances, safety nets, the positiveness of humans, our own adoption as sons of God.
 
I am not sure that follows. Lots of great people have come out of orphanages - and orphanages secondarily serve as stark reminders for us on a range of topics. The presence and power of true charity, the infinite value of all life, second chances, safety nets, the positiveness of humans, our own adoption as sons of God.
It follows if we are judging by the criteria of what parental roles a child has in their life (I’m assuming all else is held equal). There will always be great people that come from orphanages while some not so great people come from two parent households, I agree. But that fact is a bit of a red herring.
 
It follows if we are judging by the criteria of what parental roles a child has in their life (I’m assuming all else is held equal). There will always be great people that come from orphanages while some not so great people come from two parent households, I agree. But that fact is a bit of a red herring.
Right, that’s probably a dangerous set of criteria to “buy” from the world. Even the term “roles” is loaded with modern day psychobabble. We don’t even realize it. We buy the words and then build our thinking around the lightweight “research” associated with these terms. Most of the role language oozed up from sociology and psychology departments in the 60s, 70s, etc.

The right criteria for children to learn (hopefully from their parents) are self-donation (i.e., charity), acceptance of God’s will (exhibited by obedience and docility to His will, and by extension subordination of our will), pursuit of holiness (not self-actualization), humility, responsibility in our freedom, and a spirit of sacrifice. These are actually “virtues” which of course aren’t studied on campuses either…at best we see “values” researched. And while the virtues themselves are neuter, the particular expressions, practices, and methods to teach and reinforce these virtues vary between the genders.

You won’t find these “criteria” discussed much in the "role research’ which has littered the campuses across the world since the 1960s, and has unfortunately “defined the terms” of even this very thread.
 
I’m from Singapore and I was in US for few weeks. Went to visit all sorts of churches, catholic, methodist, episcopal etc. I find it sad that some churches have leaned towards promoting homosexuality and accepting it as ‘nature’ and natural instead of induced n ‘nurture’.

I firmly believe God created Man and woman to be proper heterosexuals as they were meant to be. Homosexuality is self-induced and works of the devil which one must pray for strength from God to get rid of.

I know I’m being too firm on this but I strongly believe that God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and STEVE or MADAM and Eve.

I believe we must love homosexuals as people and children of God to help them understand their issues but we must in no circumstances, ever promote homosexuality.
 
I’m from Singapore and I was in US for few weeks. Went to visit all sorts of churches, catholic, methodist, episcopal etc. I find it sad that some churches have leaned towards promoting homosexuality and accepting it as ‘nature’ and natural instead of induced n ‘nurture’.

I firmly believe God created Man and woman to be proper heterosexuals as they were meant to be. Homosexuality is self-induced and works of the devil which one must pray for strength from God to get rid of.

I know I’m being too firm on this but I strongly believe that God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and STEVE or MADAM and Eve.

I believe we must love homosexuals as people and children of God to help them understand their issues but we must in no circumstances, ever promote homosexuality.
Recent studies have shown that it actually has to do with hormones.
I’m not so sure what I feel on it yet. i’m not quite sure if they are born gay or not.
Science says they are born gay, but personal opinion says they are not.
i really don’t know at this point. We’ll have to wait and see what they continue to find.
however i don’t think god would allow them to be born that way and then tell them they’re going to hell for just being who they are.
 
Recent studies have shown that it actually has to do with hormones.
I’m not so sure what I feel on it yet. i’m not quite sure if they are born gay or not.
Science says they are born gay, but personal opinion says they are not.
i really don’t know at this point. We’ll have to wait and see what they continue to find.
however i don’t think god would allow them to be born that way and then tell them they’re going to hell for just being who they are.
Actually some scientists are reported to have concluded that some people are born gay; and some scientists have not concluded this.

Still, the scientific principle of parsimony calls for other attractions (described in my posts above) to be explained in the same manner, or for a set of explanations covering the entire range of human attractions be put forward, with coherent explanations. I don’t think the field of human attraction has been even close to being definitively explained by scientists.
 
Thats okay if you think my post is dumb. You have a right to your opinion. But by challenging some guy on an internet forum, you are not going to change ANYTHING in relation to gays being gay or what their rights are and should be.
That’s not true and that’s not the only issue. Even if nothing changes on that issue, every little thing you do still changes something…
So before you get snippy with me again, I suggest you think about I said. Thanks. 👍
…so I suggest you re-read your own post and think about it. Obviously I’m challenging you here, but I don’t mean to be snippy. I mean to sincerely invite you to think about what you said in your post and to think about what it represents as a statement about how we are supposed to conduct ourselves and what the point of our actions (including words) is supposed to be.
 
Betterave

I’m sure that’s not fair or compassionate to homosexuals.

Since it is true, there is no need to call it unfair or without compassion. Do you know a gay person who looks forward to having sex and his own child with a woman?
No, it’s not true. There are plenty of lesbians who would love it if they could get their eggs to join together to make a child. It is *not *the thought of producing their own child that disgusts them.
 
But if we are considering the presence of parental roles in a child’s life as our criteria, it should follow that having one parental role filled is preferred to having no parental role filled. Thus the orphanage would be the worst case scenario out of three possible scenarios going by the criteria of parental role.
Well that’s a difficult empirical question. But I think you’re wrong about no parental role being filled in an orphanage. I’m sure that in many cases orphanages do a much better job of providing care to children than parents do. The point, however, is simply that if we are placing children for adoption, we ought to *prefer *to place them in a stable home with a mother and a father. I don’t see why that should be controversial.
 
Admittedly, Thomas’ story unnecessarily gives people with SSA a bad rep. That said, you never know. Although it has yet to happen, maybe one day God will bless a gay or lesbian couple with a child. Anything is possible with God.
Yes, God has the power to do anything. But would God bless a sinful union? God would never direct humans to sin nor bless their sinfulness.

As for the virgin birth, there is no sin in that and God provided a mother and a father for his Son. He didn’t provide a single mother, or two mommies.

Every child is entitled to a mom and a dad. There is a long list of waiting adoptive families but the system supports single mothers, and fostering over adoption. Gays do not need to apply to Catholic adoption agencies to become adoptive parents. And many women who place their child up for adoption want that child to have a mom and dad. They are allowed to put that stipulation on the adoption. In fact, most adoptions are open today so the adoptive mother approves the adoptive parents.
 
I’ll admit that children probably are best off with a mother and a father, “nuclear family”, but if you took some time to seriously look into our government’s adoption system, you’d see that at any given time, there are somewhere around 600,000 children stuck in the it, under the care of government workers. While a homosexual couple may not be the best case, because of the lack of a role model for both genders, it is a family, and that beats orphan status any day.
the funding for the foster system is based on the number of kids in the system. It is not in the foster system’s best interest to matriculate children out of it till they are 18. Courts do not make it easy to end parental rights. Many of these kids should have been removed from their situations as infants. Again, the system works overtime to keep parents and kids together, even when the kids are living in a foster home.

I am not completely against single parent or gay parent adoption. But it should be reserved as a last resort and not as an ideal or equal standard to a traditional two parent male/female family. An older, hard to place kid might do better with any kind of stable home than the bouncing from foster home to foster home.

I’m also in favor of terminating parental rights for any kid who’s been in the system for 2 years. If parents can’t get their act together by then, then courts need to do what is best for the kids.
 
If ‘nature’ did not ‘intend’ for there to be homosexuals, they wouldn’t exist.
Nature does not intend people to be born blind, but some are. They are born with eyes that don’t work correctly. So are you saying that people who are born blind are the norm just because they exist?
 
What do pedophiles have to do with this? Just like sadomasochism, pedophiles are shaped by life experience. Homosexuals at least partially aren’t. Perversion or not, I want to dispel the myth here and now that homosexuals “choose” to be gay. Sure, they can choose not to pursue their sexuality, but that doesn’t mean they are choosing one sexual orientation over the other. Maybe you are confusing homosexuals with bisexuals, who actually have a choice?
Do you mean to say that pedophiles aren’t born that way? That they have a normal sexual attraction that is perverted by ‘life experience’? Is there documented proof of this? What about a pedophile who says he has always been turned on by prepubescent children? Are you saying if a pedophile isn’t born that way, they be cured of their disordered attactions? Isn’t that what the psychiatric association told the Catholic Bishops 40 or more years ago? that pedophiles can be ‘cured’ with therapy?
 
I’m all for repealing DADT, because I see no point in denying these people the opportunity of military service just because of one aspect in their private lives. Things get tricky, though, when you get into the issue of adoption. Some might argue that it legitimizes homosexual marriage. Unfortunately, perhaps it does. But at the same token, some homosexuals may choose to remain single (in which case would make this outright discrimination), and some still might enter relationships no matter the church’s position. .
Homosexuals are not discriminated against by the marriage laws. They are free to marry just like anyone else and many have. There are many cases of homosexual men married to women and lesbians married to men. They have the same right to marry as any man or woman who is of legal age, not already married, and not a close blood relative.

There is no gender orientation box on a marriage license.
 
Do you mean to say that pedophiles aren’t born that way? That they have a normal sexual attraction that is perverted by ‘life experience’? Is there documented proof of this? What about a pedophile who says he has always been turned on by prepubescent children? Are you saying if a pedophile isn’t born that way, they be cured of their disordered attactions? Isn’t that what the psychiatric association told the Catholic Bishops 40 or more years ago? that pedophiles can be ‘cured’ with therapy?
What makes homosexuals different from pedophiles, sadomasochists, etc is that we have at least some evidence to support the idea that homosexuality could be attributed in part or whole to biological factors, while we have no such evidence to support a biological connection to pedophilia, sadomasochism, and so forth.

Well, in case haven’t heard, a large percentage of pedophiles were victims of child abuse, so I would definitely qualify that as “life experience”. As for therapy, I’m not suggesting that pedophiles might be able to find normal attractions, but therapy might be of help in the way of controlling their (unfortunately dangerous) desires. I suppose, in some ways, pedophiles and homosexuals are similar. Both have extreme stigma and prejudices attached to them, both are unlikely to be “cured” through therapy or any other means and both have trouble sustaining normal heterosexual romantic relationships (albeit, in the case of homosexuals, this is absolute). This brings me back to an earlier point. We are a society of labels, and the labels geared towards one’s sexuality can be particularly harsh. As a church, we should strive to separate the labels from the people being labeled, to separate the sin from the sinner, and see these people, no matter how disordered their actions may be, as normal people with abnormal problems, not “pedophile Bob” or “S&M Jane”.
 
That’s not true and that’s not the only issue. Even if nothing changes on that issue, every little thing you do still changes something…

…so I suggest you re-read your own post and think about it. Obviously I’m challenging you here, but I don’t mean to be snippy. I mean to sincerely invite you to think about what you said in your post and to think about what it represents as a statement about how we are supposed to conduct ourselves and what the point of our actions (including words) is supposed to be.
You think Id post something without thinking about it first?

I already know what I said to you, and I still hold it strong. I don’t think you’re changing anything by debating somebody on an internet forum.
 
Betterave

I’m sure that’s not fair or compassionate to homosexuals.

Since it is true, there is no need to call it unfair or without compassion. Do you know a gay person who looks forward to having sex and his own child with a woman?
Right here! Too bad it won’t happen. 😦
 
Actually some scientists are reported to have concluded that some people are born gay; and some scientists have not concluded this.

Still, the scientific principle of parsimony calls for other attractions (described in my posts above) to be explained in the same manner, or for a set of explanations covering the entire range of human attractions be put forward, with coherent explanations. I don’t think the field of human attraction has been even close to being definitively explained by scientists.
Yeah I agree. Like I said, we’ll have to wait and see.
 
Granted, I’m not some covert operative dispatched to spread the “homosexual agenda” either. I’ve seen some gay people who really do fit the stereotypes, and some who are very much against organized religion and unwilling to cooperate. Every group tends to have their black sheep, I guess. What I’ve been trying to get at all along is that, because homosexuals have to deny their very nature if they are to be accepted by the Catholic church, the least we can do is treat them like normal people and not discriminate against them.
As one accursed with same-sex attractions, I deny that it is my “very nature” to have sexual relations with other men.
 
however i don’t think god would allow them to be born that way and then tell them they’re going to hell for just being who they are.
Fortunately God doesn’t say that. You can not got to hell for who you are. You only go to hell if you lead an unrepentant, sinful life and reject Jesus as your savior.

Scripture, the Word of God, tells us that engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage is sinful behavior. Doesn’t matter if you’re gay or straight. The rule applies to all.
 
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