Same sex couples

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Edward_H said:
If someone gets addicted to alcohol…and their attraction to alcohol causes them to sin…then what they did to first get addicted is sin.
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Of course what they first DID to get addicted was sin.

But the attraction did not CAUSE them to sin. Temptations never ever cause sin. And temptations are never directly culpable; they may be indirectly culpable if they have been caused by previous sins.
 
Edward_H said:
Oh sure they do…most of these fetishes and unnatural attractions begin “solo”…with one’s imagination, perhaps gradually fueled/fed by porn, and then sadly strongly reinforced (a la Skinnerian explanations) by masturbation, intense pleasure and climax.

As I said earlier…it begins with little departures (just as Joe described above) and then reinforcements…and then the next step…then one leaves one’s imagination and privacy of the bedroom…and onward it goes.
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You have not answered: why did I choose to find a man attractive? I was 10, and I had no idea what “homosexuality” was. I had certainly never seen porn! Why did I choose?
 
Edward_H said:
The referenced letter to Bishops is just that a letter on pastoral care.

It didn’t weigh in definitively on the nature of attractions…
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There is nothing in catholic teaching that suggests to experience attraction to the same sex is sinful. Nothing. Even the principals of moral theology weigh solidly against that idea, for no moral evaluation is possible without an act of the will - a knowing choice of an act (which may include thoughts).

There are numerous statemements identifying that the mere experience of disordered attractions are not sinful.
 
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Rau said:
There are numerous statemements identifying thst the mere experience of disorders attractions are not sinful.
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Yeah but skinnerian gradualism.

I’m sorry to be so abrasive on this, but this line of thinking is incredibly disturbing. This train of thought is what leads kids to hang themselves. You’re telling me that some teen who experiences SSA through no conscious exercise of his will, is committed to living a life of chastity and prayer, and is involved with a Catholic group like Courage is sinning simply by his existence? Hit the bricks with that garbage. Far from condemnation, that person deserves our admiration and respect. They are trying to carry a very heavy cross for love of Christ, and swimming against some strong cultural tides to do it.
 
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How we use our will makes a difference.

What needs to happen is ‘reconciliation’ between our will, our intellect (moral criteria in the conscience), our passions and appetites, and God’s will for us, His Church, and to Him.

And that’s exactly - precisely - what happens in the Sacrament of Reconciliation…a reconciling of all these things.

Attractions developed can be muted/shifted/delayed/weakened/reworked.

Otherwise, it is tantamount to saying that God is a liar.

He said “my grace is sufficient”…no one is beyond the love of God…no one is beyond being able to eventually, gradually living fully the will of God.
 
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BoomBoomMancini said:
Yeah but skinnerian gradualism.

I’m sorry to be so abrasive on this, but this line of thinking is incredibly disturbing. This train of thought is what leads kids to hang themselves. You’re telling me that some teen who experiences SSA through no conscious exercise of his will, is committed to living a life of chastity and prayer, and is involved with a Catholic group like Courage is sinning simply by his existence? Hit the bricks with that garbage. Far from condemnation, that person deserves our admiration and respect. They are trying to carry a very heavy cross for love of Christ, and swimming against some strong cultural tides to do it.
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I’m not suggesting any of that. Read the thread more carefully, then retract you post.
 
Oh yes, read St Paul!

And some people here ought to actually read what the document to bishops on the “Pastoral care” ACTUALLY SAYS:

“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.”
 
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Edward_H said:
He said “my grace is sufficient”…no one is beyond the love of God…no one is beyond being able to eventually, gradually living fully the will of God.
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Which says nothing about the attractions one may experience.
 
the inclination itself is an objective disorder…as the PASTORAL document says.

"Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder."
 
Edward_H said:
“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.”
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And none of us have disagreed with that. We agree that it is a bad thing, but claim it is not a sin. Do you even understand the distinction?

(N.B. ALL temptations are bad, in content).
 
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That’s the key. There’s a big difference between a disorder and a sin. Having a missing leg is a disorder, but its not a sin.
 
To nurse it…is a sin…to put oneself in the near occasion is a sin.
 
It gets murky…next month’s “uncontrollable attraction” was today’s denial not done.
 
The original topic is moot…given that to move toward any coupling is to more to a near temptation to sin.
 
Edward_H said:
“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.”
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I’m well familiar with what it says. Note there is no sin. The point is - it’s not good to experience an attraction toward what would be morally evil, That’s a fact. But it is not sinful.
 
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