Same sex marriage and the various views in Christianity.

[Reuben_J]

Luther on polygamy

and

Jon

In other word, you allow polygamous marriage. And this is his personal belief, “Accordingly, I do not believe that Christians any longer have this liberty. God would have to publish a command that would declare such a liberty.” Or do I miss something?

 

[JonNC]

In other word, you allow polygamous marriage.

Clearly not! We will when “God …publish[es] a command that would declare such a liberty.”

Jon

 

[Reuben_J]

What about this Jon?

I confess that** I cannot forbid** a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter. (De Wette II, 459, ibid., pp. 329-330.)

 

[JonNC]

What about this Jon?

I confess that** I cannot forbid** a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter. (De Wette II, 459, ibid., pp. 329-330.)

He’s speaking from his position, as having no authority to do so. However, you have to read the rest of his quotes.

Jon

 

[Christian_Unity]

Well, I think we all need to be wary of biased sources, but what sources would you accept when one is arguing from a Chrisitan perspective. Is the Bible a biased source? Are the teachings of the early Church Fathers biased sources. We defend our faith on this forum, which we received from the Apostles. Are the Apostles biased sources?

At what point was polygamy prohibited in the Catholic Church? It was my understanding that the New Testament Church practiced polygamy for 300 years. Does the Catholic Church change in doctrine, practice, and beliefs over time? Did any of the Apostles or Jesus teach that polygamy was wrong or immoral?

 

[benjohnson]

In other word, you allow polygamous marriage.

No - just because Martin Luther said or is read by modern readers as saying something wrong doesn’t mean we follow Luther. Luther is most vehemently not our ‘authority.’ He was a man who helped reform a portion of the western church, and we continue in this fashion - in no way do any of our authorities sanction polygamous marriage.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Why is everyone here against polygamy since it is the common marriage arrangement found in the Scriptures? The Apostles and Jesus never taught against it, or considered polygamy to be immoral. I don’t think the Catholic Church was against polygamy for the first 300 years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity

 

[Reuben_J]

No - just because Martin Luther said or is read by modern readers as saying something wrong doesn’t mean we follow Luther. Luther is most vehemently not our ‘authority.’ He was a man who helped reform a portion of the western church, and we continue in this fashion - in no way do any of our authorities sanction polygamous marriage.

JonNC:

He’s speaking from his position, as having no authority to do so. However, you have to read the rest of his quotes.

Jon

Thanks for the clarification, ben and Jon. I was quite shock when I saw that post that says Luther allowed polygamy.

 

[Christian_Unity]

In western society, we assume that polygamy is immoral and sinful by our culture biases. However, polygamy is practiced today throughout the world. It helps to understand the other perspective for tolerance and acceptance of others. Why does the rest of the world have to believe like us Americans?

votepolygamy.com/category/world-polygamy/

 

[Reuben_J]

In western society, we assume that polygamy is immoral and sinful by our culture biases. However, polygamy is practiced today throughout the world. It helps to understand the other perspective for tolerance and acceptance of others. Why does the rest of the world have to believe like us Americans?

votepolygamy.com/category/world-polygamy/

I think it is about value. Even for those who practice polygamy, it is not a norm but rather, exception.

Even if we leave out the theological reason for disallowing polygamy, it can never be good for marriage and family. We are into the modern era, not in the OT anymore. Situation has changed. If we can abolish slavery and implement equal rights, why can’t we about polygamy?

 

[Giants]

I think it is about value. Even for those who practice polygamy, it is not a norm but rather, exception.

Even if we leave out the theological reason for disallowing polygamy, it can never be good for marriage and family. We are into the modern era, not in the OT anymore. Situation has changed. If we can abolish slavery and implement equal rights, why can’t we about polygamy?

I think we need to see it demonstrated (not just affirmed) that polygamy is categorically “bad for marriage” (whatever this means), and bad for raising families. It was always affirmed to be that way for SSM, but frankly, we’ve come to find out that this isn’t the case.

Not that I think we’ll need to worry about a real fight over polygamous marriages. It’s often asserted that polygamist are waiting for SSMs to be fully legalized before they step up and demand their marriage rights as well. The fact is, if this were going to happen, they wouldn’t bother waiting for an invitation.

 

[Reuben_J]

I think we need to see it demonstrated (not just affirmed) that polygamy is categorically “bad for marriage” (whatever this means), and bad for raising families. It was always affirmed to be that way for SSM, but frankly, we’ve come to find out that this isn’t the case.

Not that I think we’ll need to worry about a real fight over polygamous marriages. It’s often asserted that polygamist are waiting for SSMs to be fully legalized before they step up and demand their marriage rights as well. The fact is, if this were going to happen, they wouldn’t bother waiting for an invitation.

I can say that polygamy is bad for the families and the children if what I saw testify to that.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I can say that polygamy is bad for the families and the children if what I saw testify to that.

Can you find anything in the Scriptures from OT Prophets, to Apostles, and to Jesus who indicates that polygamy is immoral, wrong, or bad? Augustine did not oppose polygamy based on Scripture; rather he believed that we should submit to governmental law as revealed in Romans 13.

 

[JHow]

This approach to scripture sounds to me like the pro-slavery and pro-segregation arguments of previous eras: what is not proscribed is optional, what is optional is affirmed.

 

[Reuben_J]

Can you find anything in the Scriptures from OT Prophets, to Apostles, and to Jesus who indicates that polygamy is immoral, wrong, or bad? Augustine did not oppose polygamy based on Scripture; rather he believed that we should submit to governmental law as revealed in Romans 13.

I think I’ve given them in my earlier posts.

Abraham (Sarah and Hagar —> Isaac and Ishmael), King David (Bathsheba —> Absalom, Amnon, Tamar, etc), King Solomon.

I can understand why St Augustine said that considering his earlier life. I take pain to say this but the saints and the ancient patriarchs and kings, though our fore-fathers, they were not always right.

 

[Reuben_J]

He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord; (1 Kg 11:3-6)

 

[Christian_Unity]

He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord; (1 Kg 11:3-6)

So says Jehovah, the God of Israel,
I anointed you (David) king over Israel,
and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul.
… I gave you your …master’s wives into your bosom…
2Sam.12:7-8

God blessed David with wives but condemned him
when he took another man’s wife.

How many wives did David have
before he committed adultery
with Bathsheba?

There is a very well known instance when God actually commanded polygyny:

Deut 25:5-6 If brothers live together, and one of them dies and has no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry outside to a stranger. Her husband’s brother shall go in to her and take her as a wife for himself, and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. And it shall be, the first-born whom she bears shall succeed in the name of his dead brother, so that his name may not be put out of Israel.

We find another story of polygyny in the book of Genesis 38. This one did not have a happy ending. Onan refused to raise up seed to his dead brother; to obey God in this divinely ordained practice and was punished. Gen.38:8-10. Why would God punish Onan if polygyny was only His permissive will and Onan was a “God preferred” monogamist?

We need to note that Onan was struck dead by God for not marrying his brother’s wife long before The Law was given. Levirate polygyny was embedded in Hammurabbi’s Law (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi).

Did God give such laws to Hammurabi or had God instituted levirate polygyny in the lives of the Patriarchs. It doesn’t matter really, God acted swiftly against a man who refused to observe this form of polygyny. This action of our God flies in the face of all who ignore Scripture and try their best to argue against polygyny.

from: biblepolygamy.com/

 

[Reuben_J]

So says Jehovah, the God of Israel,
I anointed you (David) king over Israel,
and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul.
… I gave you your …master’s wives into your bosom…
2Sam.12:7-8

I know this verse which the proponents of polygamy like to quote. It was during a time of war and upheaval but whatever it was, the problems that caused about by polygamy cannot justify that.

God blessed David with wives but condemned him
when he took another man’s wife.

How many wives did David have
before he committed adultery
with Bathsheba?

There is a very well known instance when God actually commanded polygyny:

Deut 25:5-6 If brothers live together, and one of them dies and has no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry outside to a stranger. Her husband’s brother shall go in to her and take her as a wife for himself, and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. And it shall be, the first-born whom she bears shall succeed in the name of his dead brother, so that his name may not be put out of Israel.

Did you read what the wives brought to his (David) life? Nothing but miseries and tragedies.

The small link you gave, yes, I read, which said David was polygamous and that only adultery is disallowed. When we think of polygamy and adultery, there is not much different there.

What about Abraham - the legacy that what brought today as a result of having another mistress, Hagar the slave?

What about Solomon that I just mentioned?

 

[Reuben_J]

This is was the passage says:

2 Sam 12:7-8
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

What can you make of it? Isn’t this a normal promise that God gave to his kings and leaders when he gave then victory in battle? “I will give you all the land and everything in it, the men, women and cattle.” …

It is still not conclusive that all those women must become their wives. What is clear God gave everything to the victors so that they can displace the inhabitants of land and take it for their own. Similarly, David was to take over Saul’s throne and all that were in it.

 

[Stephen168]

Can you find anything in the Scriptures from OT Prophets, to Apostles, and to Jesus who indicates that polygamy is immoral, wrong, or bad? Augustine did not oppose polygamy based on Scripture; rather he believed that we should submit to governmental law as revealed in Romans 13.

Yes, see post #4. A Christian marriage is between one woman and one man. Augustine said it was the best marriage. See post #70.

It is clear that you have cherry picked quotes to conform to your polygamist agenda from Augustine and Martin Luther.

Same-sex unions are not marriage and never have been.