Same sex marriage, but not in Church

[Betterave]

Then fight legal divorce publicly, too.

And working on Sundays.

These must be poisoning society also. But who is publicly arguing for these to be made illegal? What candidates speak publicly against these when they run for office?

This point has already been answered.

 

[Zeemeermin]

Well maybe your religious beliefs influence your votes, but your religious beliefs are obviously not *Catholic *religious beliefs.

Sheesh, at least JohnCS only called me a bad Catholic.

 

[edwest2]

My religious beliefs do influence how I vote. Always. BUT we do not live in a theocracy. If we did, we might have the right to enforce our moral norms on everyone. Frankly, I don’t want to live in a theocracy. Never seems to work right. This is why, even though abortion is one of the most sickening, morally repugnant things I can think of, I also think it will stay legally available. Simply because one group, in a democratic, pluralistic society, cannot impose its moral laws on another that disagrees. Same with divorce, the decriminalization of adultery, etc. We in the Church must work on the “hearts and minds” level. We should be seeking to inspire true conversion, not mere legal acquiescence. If Catholics took this mission seriously and did it well, the laws wouldn’t matter, because no one would take advantage of them. I think The Church does well at expressing moral law and refusing to change to rules to “suit the times.” However, I think individual Catholics, parishes, national conferences of bishops, do fairly badly at the kind of evangelization that would repair the social fabric.

Being an American is as important to me as being a Catholic. And as an American, believing as I do in liberty, equality, and freedom from religion as a corollary to freedom of religion… I think civil unions would be OK.

“the laws wouldn’t matter, because no one would take advantage of them”?

What are you talking about? The Supreme Court found penumbras and emanations in the US Constitution that allowed the killing of babies in the womb.

It does not matter, at all, that people in California voted against gay marriage twice. The “tyranny of the majority” was invented.

All laws are based on a truth claim. God, and religion, need not be involved. Is same-sex marriage based on a truth claim? Is there a fundamental truth involved?

Embryonic stem cell research? Are human beings being killed? This requires a yes or no answer, because absent a clear answer, human beings are killed.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Seeker2010]

Morality is for the entire society, not just Catholics. And that is what we Catholics are defending.

I remember when I was younger it struck me as odd that people were concerned that Kennedy being a Catholic might prove an impediment for his election to the Presidency.

Now I get it. It’s not enough for you guys that those who chose Catholicism will live as you tell them to, at the end of the day the truth is ya’ll want to force all of us to. We do not live in a Catholic Theology.

 

[JohnCS]

Then fight legal divorce publicly, too.

And working on Sundays.

These must be poisoning society also. But who is publicly arguing for these to be made illegal? What candidates speak publicly against these when they run for office?

When 1 million people share a common cause, some things can get done and changes can be made. When 1 million people each have their own cause, all 1 million causes are going to fail. Priorities my friend. The tidal wave must be slowed down and stopped before it can be turned around. Maybe when the abominations of abortion and same sex marriage are thouroghly defeated, we can turn attention to divorce, contraception, and working Sundays. Here is to hoping!

God bless,

John

 

[JDaniel]

Even if you didn’t mean to, you come across as hostile, judgmental, and rude. You should watch your tone. You come very close to asking if I am even Catholic. Of course I know these things and hold them dear. I abide by every teaching of The Church, believe in and defend them. What I do not understand is your connection between these two areas of Christ guiding His Church and secular “marriage”. Please enlighten me, if you can do so without coming across as patronizing and condescending.

Rawb:

You sounded as though you had already made your mind up to sit in place of the Pope. I wanted to be forceful, since you were an acknowledged Catholic. Now that I know you haven’t been lost to us, I’ll be milder.

I may be a tad - notice, I said “tad” - older than you. As such I have seen the slow, methodical dismemberment of Christianity, especially the Catholic Church, as well as other cherished gifts, by the secularists. If we don’t fight for what is right and what is ours, we will lose it all and be forced to concede to secular law. That is the problem with the dichotomy you suggested.

God bless,
jd

P.S. Was that better?

 

[Zeemeermin]

“the laws wouldn’t matter, because no one would take advantage of them”?

What are you talking about?

We in the Church must work on the “hearts and minds” level. We should be seeking to inspire true conversion

If we achieved true conversion of the heart in all around us, no person would indulge in immoral behavior just because it was legal.

 

[JohnCS]

Sheesh, at least JohnCS only called me a bad Catholic.

EEEK! I most certainly did not intend too. I was just showing that sometimes our priorities get skewed and we must be careful. Well, I started writing this already so I can’t go back and check, but I think that is all I was trying to say

God bless,

John

 

[rvalin94]

Zeemeermin;7015445:

I don’t think it should be called marriage, because that word means something unique. However, in the interest of justice, compassion, equality, and religious freedom, I have absolutely no problem with civil unions. As a Catholic, I may disagree with the gay lifestyle. But as an American, I have no right to impose my beliefs on other people. (And before someone brings up abortion, as they inevitably will, this does not involve murdering innocent human lives! Big difference.) ** Some of these gay couples want to make their relationships permanent and legal, gain certain privileges, rights, and tax benefits given to the married. As a secular matter only, I say go ahead./**

QUOTE]

Hi Zeemeermin,
Would that it were as simple as that!
Let us be under no illusion here. The reason why the issue of gay “marriage” is so vehemently debated is because the gay agenda is a many-headed animal. The “marriage” issue is just another battlefront.
There is no need (as you fear) to bring in analogous arguments.
The gay agenda can be seen clearly. Once the secular ground has been won, how long do you reckon it will be before the religious front is tackled head-on?
No, we must fight gay “marriage” at every step. As previous posters have pointed out, this is an issue about fighting sin in the world.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

I think it’s disgusting and Un-Christian to consider the idea of legalizing and trying to gain the acceptance of Gay Marriage as part of some “homosexual agenda.” How dare anyone cast down the relationship of people who have been together longer and happier than some married couples?

The Church in its Theology and Faith is the beacon of Light and the Body of Christ on earth. But it IS subject to change with society at least in terms of relations with people. Let us not forget that at one point, the Church condoned slavery because of the Bible and it’s interpretation at the time. It was obviously wrong and it may be wrong here. Homosexuals are not trying to fulfill some “agenda,” but trying to be happy. It is sanctimonious and hypocritical to condemn these people! "Judge not, lest ye be judged!"

REA

 

[Seeker2010]

Why is there no large move to make contraception illegal? Or divorce? Or remarriage after divorce? These are all sins, the first against natural law even, but I’ve never heard any real attempt to make them illegal.

Are you advocating such ideas, or merely asking a question? For such ideas fly in the face of freedom our country is allegedly founded upon.

 

[Betterave]

Sheesh, at least JohnCS only called me a bad Catholic.

At least my comment was nothing more than a statement of fact.

What’s your comment supposed to be? A denial of that fact? Not a very effective one, if it is.

 

[larkin31]

When 1 million people share a common cause, some things can get done and changes can be made. When 1 million people each have their own cause, all 1 million causes are going to fail. Priorities my friend. The tidal wave must be slowed down and stopped before it can be turned around. Maybe when the abominations of abortion and same sex marriage are thouroghly defeated, we can turn attention to divorce, contraception, and working Sundays. Here is to hoping!

God bless,

John

Homosexuality is simply sex between consenting adults. Working on Sundays and divorce have been legal in this country far longer and have affected many more families.

I think that this gay marriage “priority” is rooted in greater selfishness: a turf war mentality over marriage: you will share Sundays with non-believers and not complain when people work then and you will not attempt to make divorce illegal as long as “true Catholics” don’t go for it, but no one–that I suspect has to do with deep psychological issues around sexuality and possessiveness–can mess with the axis of marriage cuz, dad blam it, that ruins how I see my wife!

 

[Betterave]

colmcille1;7015499:

I think it’s disgusting and Un-Christian to consider the idea of legalizing and trying to gain the acceptance of Gay Marriage as part of some “homosexual agenda.” How dare anyone cast down the relationship of people who have been together longer and happier than some married couples?

The Church in its Theology and Faith is the beacon of Light and the Body of Christ on earth. But it IS subject to change with society at least in terms of relations with people. Let us not forget that at one point, the Church condoned slavery because of the Bible and it’s interpretation at the time. It was obviously wrong and it may be wrong here. Homosexuals are not trying to fulfill some “agenda,” but trying to be happy. It is sanctimonious and hypocritical to condemn these people! "Judge not, lest ye be judged!"

REA

I just love sanctimonious and hypocritical comments calling others sanctimonious and hypocritical.

 

[Betterave]

Are you advocating such ideas, or merely asking a question? For such ideas fly in the face of freedom our country is allegedly founded upon.

What do you take to be the a) philosophical and b) historical grounds for this comment?

RE: your earlier comment, “now I get it”: with due respect, no you most certainly don’t get it. You clearly are very ignorant about what the Church is about (this is just a statement of fact based on my having read a good number of your comments on this forum).

 

[JohnCS]

colmcille1;7015499:

I think it’s disgusting and Un-Christian to consider the idea of legalizing and trying to gain the acceptance of Gay Marriage as part of some “homosexual agenda.” How dare anyone cast down the relationship of people who have been together longer and happier than some married couples?

The Church in its Theology and Faith is the beacon of Light and the Body of Christ on earth. But it IS subject to change with society at least in terms of relations with people. Let us not forget that at one point, the Church condoned slavery because of the Bible and it’s interpretation at the time. It was obviously wrong and it may be wrong here. Homosexuals are not trying to fulfill some “agenda,” but trying to be happy. It is sanctimonious and hypocritical to condemn these people! "Judge not, lest ye be judged!"

REA

In the words of Indigo Montoya: “I don’t think that word means what a you think it means.”
Calling a sin a sin is not judging. That verse, in my humble opionion, is used in the wrong context WAYYYYYY to often. You are right about slavery being okay in the bible; it was a fact of life back then. But every time homosexuality is mentioned it is vehemently condemned, there is a big difference. Slavery was not an infallible dogma of the church. Where as, sex outside of marriage IS a sin per dogma, AND marriage is between a man and a woman ONLY is also a doctrine. So, while condoning slavery (which I think condoning is a mite strong of a word concerning the church’s outlook of it) may have changed, same sex marriage can never and will never change.

 

[Betterave]

Homosexuality is simply sex between consenting adults. Working on Sundays and divorce have been legal in this country far longer and have affected many more families.

I think that this gay marriage “priority” is rooted in greater selfishness: a turf war mentality over marriage: you will share Sundays with non-believers and not complain when people work then and you will not attempt to make divorce illegal as long as “true Catholics” don’t go for it, but no one–that I suspect has to do with deep psychological issues around sexuality and possessiveness–can mess with the axis of marriage cuz, dad blam it, that ruins how I see my wife!

Since you completely ignore the rational analysis of the issue, no one is likely to be impressed with your groundless personal ad hominem opinion here.

I must say, it gets rather depressing engaging with people who evidently have no interest in intelligent dialogue.

 

[rvalin94]

Let us keep in mind that a “sin” is something one does. It is an action, a choice, taken by one purposely against God and his will. But a sexual orientation, such as homosexuality is not a choice. It is the nature of a person and therefore cannot be sin.

 

[Seeker2010]

What do you take to be the a) philosophical and b) historical grounds for this comment?

The person to which I responded questioned (and possibly endorses) the idea of making divorce, contraception, and remarriage after divorce AGAINST THE LAW. Of banning the practice, and putting people in JAIL for failure to comply. Seems to me that is antithetical to the idea that, first and foremost, we live in a FREE society.

You clearly are very ignorant about what the Church is about (this is just a statement of fact based on my having read a good number of your comments on this forum).

Perhaps, but what has become frighteningly clear to me is that many people here would, if only they could, enforce the rules of Catholicism upon the rest of society. Some have been crystal clear in endorsing that, others a bit more opaque. That concerns me, greatly.

 

[JohnCS]

Homosexuality is simply sex between consenting adults. Working on Sundays and divorce have been legal in this country far longer and have affected many more families.

I think that this gay marriage “priority” is rooted in greater selfishness: a turf war mentality over marriage: you will share Sundays with non-believers and not complain when people work then and you will not attempt to make divorce illegal as long as “true Catholics” don’t go for it, but no one–that I suspect has to do with deep psychological issues around sexuality and possessiveness–can mess with the axis of marriage cuz, dad blam it, that ruins how I see my wife!

I think that your support of gay marriage and your belief that it is okay is based on the “wishful thinking fallacy”. I would guess that you know some really good friends or family member, (or yourself) who are gay, and because they are really great people, you can’t fathom the idea of them being denied their “happiness”, or even worse, going to hell. So, this hope colors your intelect to put more belief into ideas that support what you wish to be true, while you disregard anything contrary.
Now, two concenting adults who have sex in the privacy of their own homes will have my prayers for conversion and no more. When they try to make their un-natural relationship a legal powerhouse that demand that my kids learn that their union is good an healthy, and my Priest can not say in the pulpit that homosexual sex is a sin because it will be against the law, then I will have to pray and vote, and use any legal action neccesary to stop it. It has a greater value of immorality than working Sundays and divorce. In fact, Catholics can work on Sundays if they need to in order to support and care for their families. Catholics can also divorce if the relationship is dangerous (we just can’t remarry) So it seems that the church agrees with me that homosexual unions is worse than working Sundays and divorce, and so recieves the priority.

God bless,

John

I have to go for now, will check in later.

 

[MarianD]

I support gay marriage. These gays WON’T get married in a Church, their weddings would be state weddings. Saying “they can’t get married because it’s not marriage” is arguing semantics. “Civil Unions” and “Marriage” is basically the same thing. It’s like saying “Water” and “Aqua”.

The only sin about homosexuality is gay sex. Even the Catechism states that being homosexual isn’t wrong. It states that they should be received with love and without judgement, and that gays are called to live a chaste life, free of sex.