Same sex marriage in Protestant churches

[rinnie]

I spoke poorly, I ment that parents are married. These things you describe are naturally occurring, as time goes on every generation pushes the envelope more than the last.

I agree. But do you agree that lack of attention or discipline is why the envelope is pushed?

IMPO many parents today have alot of guilt, maybe the one cheated and got divorced, left one for another, etc and the guilt is what causes them to let little Jr get away with more then they should.

I feel kids are confused enough in this generation, It is hard enough explaining sins that we all have in this world.

But to take a sin like that, and explain it as being okay is where I have the big problem. How do you say its okay for 2 people of the same sex to get married, find Church’s that will agree with that and then try to explain the word of God.

I mean its bad enough when WE try to validate our sin, but when a Church, a place that is supposed to teach the word of God validates it?

 

[Publisher]

I agree. But do you agree that lack of attention or discipline is why the envelope is pushed?

IMPO many parents today have alot of guilt, maybe the one cheated and got divorced, left one for another, etc and the guilt is what causes them to let little Jr get away with more then they should.

I feel kids are confused enough in this generation, It is hard enough explaining sins that we all have in this world.

But to take a sin like that, and explain it as being okay is where I have the big problem. How do you say its okay for 2 people of the same sex to get married, find Church’s that will agree with that and then try to explain the word of God.

I mean its bad enough when WE try to validate our sin, but when a Church, a place that is supposed to teach the word of God validates it?

I have attended MCC with some MCC Friends…there were lots of children and same sex couples in the congregation.

Those congregations which accept same sex marriage and GLBTQ people without question in their fellowships do not “explain away” those few biblical passages that on the surface appear to condemn same sex relationships…they offer an alternative explanation rooted and grounded in cultural and ritual practices of the time those passages were written…the most “stringent” passages used by most Christians against GLBTQ people are found in Leviticus or the story of Sodom in Genesis…in Leviticus the prohibitions are found in a “string” of prohibitions no Christian today even considers abstaining from.

The story of Sodom is more about sexual violence against strangers in their midst as a form of victimization than homosexual sex…while we may disagree with our reasons as to why same sex relationships are accepted or rejected in our respective faith communities…it is not some insidious plan to overthrow family and social constructs so our “sins” can be “approved” by society.

I has more to do with embracing the “stranger within our gates” and realizing that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters are worthy of your respect and love and fellowship as they too bear the mark of God…no matter what we personally feel about their lives they too have something to bring to our fellowships and teach us about the grace and astounding mercy of God.

 

[Hunter24]

I agree. But do you agree that lack of attention or discipline is why the envelope is pushed?

IMPO many parents today have alot of guilt, maybe the one cheated and got divorced, left one for another, etc and the guilt is what causes them to let little Jr get away with more then they should.

I feel kids are confused enough in this generation, It is hard enough explaining sins that we all have in this world.

But to take a sin like that, and explain it as being okay is where I have the big problem. How do you say its okay for 2 people of the same sex to get married, find Church’s that will agree with that and then try to explain the word of God.

I mean its bad enough when WE try to validate our sin, but when a Church, a place that is supposed to teach the word of God validates it?

I certainly agree with you. Christianity has no room for homosexuality, and that’s perfectly ok, it’s your religion. I simply oppose the imposition of these rules on non-Christians. The bible speaks out in very strick, litteral terms against homosexuality, there is no way to properly reconcile it with Christianity.

I don’t think Christians should have to perform gay marriages, that would be a terrible breach of their rights. I just think we should all get along and let everyone live as they please as long as it doesnt encroach on our rights.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC,

Great post!

God bless

Why is it today that we seem to have the mindset that if something is important, government should control it, or even have a role in it? It seems to me that, outside of the enumerated powers, the more important something is, the less government should be involved.

How, in today’s society, is marriage now the foundation? If anything, the government has spent the last 60 years undermining marriage. For example: Aid to Families With Dependent Children has probably done more to break up families than to “aid” them.

Marriage can be the foundation of civil society, but that doesn’t mean government should have anything to do with it. In fact, it seems looking at the last half century that marriage has the best chance of doing this if the government isn’t involved.

Jon

 

[stewstew03]

I certainly agree with you. Christianity has no room for homosexuality, and that’s perfectly ok, it’s your religion. I simply oppose the imposition of these rules on non-Christians. The bible speaks out in very strick, litteral terms against homosexuality, there is no way to properly reconcile it with Christianity.

I don’t think Christians should have to perform gay marriages, that would be a terrible breach of their rights. I just think we should all get along and let everyone live as they please as long as it doesnt encroach on our rights.

I think we mostly agree then, Hunter, and hopefully you’ll also agree that in a liberal democracy we all have a right to participate in the political process. As such, hopefully you don’t have a problem with Catholics defending the institution of marriage in the political arena. Catholics recognize that homosexuals are free to engage in homosexuality, and all that accompanies that lifestyle. We simply believe that the institution of marriage should be reserved for one man and one woman.

 

[stewstew03]

I has more to do with embracing the “stranger within our gates” and realizing that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters are worthy of your respect and love and fellowship as they too bear the mark of God…no matter what we personally feel about their lives they too have something to bring to our fellowships and teach us about the grace and astounding mercy of God.

Well, I don’t know what Quakers do, but the Catholic Church does love and respect our homosexual brothers and sisters, and welcomes them in our parishes.

 

[Hunter24]

I think we mostly agree then, Hunter, and hopefully you’ll also agree that in a liberal democracy we all have a right to participate in the political process. As such, hopefully you don’t have a problem with Catholics defending the institution of marriage in the political arena. Catholics recognize that homosexuals are free to engage in homosexuality, and all that accompanies that lifestyle. We simply believe that the institution of marriage should be reserved for one man and one woman.

It is perfectly your right to vote how you want, however, it is important to remember that it is very possible for democracy’s to fall to the “tyrany of the majority”. Basicly, if a democracy has no limits on its law making abilitys (like our constitution) there is the possibility that the majority may use their control of the vote to impose their will apon the minority. This is how some democracy’s end up persecuting minority’s. This is why the government should REALY stay out of people’s social lives. Otherwise things turn into arguments like the gay marriage one today. Marriage is a religiouse institution, whats the government even doing in a matter of religion.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Hunter24,

H-e-l-l-l-l-o … this is not a breeding exercise. It isn’t just having children (like a bunch of fish that fertilize a bunch of eggs and then both parents swim off and the eggs either survive off of instinct or they don’t!) but the rearing of children that matters.

Yes, one must have the children before they can be reared - but once this biological feat is accomplished - we find that children that lack a warm and supportive atomsphere have some real issues when they become older. This rearing needs to take place in an environment where both male and female adults are present to provide love and role model examples and how both sexes interact in a loving way. None of this can be done in a SS arrangement.

Men and women are simply hard-wired differently. And, while I am sure that there are those who would claim that such a difference is discriminatory or ‘unfair’ - it is the nature of human sexuality. Men are hunters, women are gatherers. Men see problems to solve and women see relationships to build. Differences are identified and are brought together in a workable solution. Of course these are stereotypes - but, I think they will address 98% of the behavioral questions out there.

Truly, Hunter, it is the children who are getting cheated in this whole process by thoroughly messed-up adults who have placed their own self-interest and pleasures ahead of society in general and the children they can influence in particular.

God bless

It is perfectly possible for a society to survive without marriage. People will have children, married or not. And it’s not about what is necessary, it’s about the projection of ones morals unto another.

 

[Hunter24]

Hi, Hunter24,

H-e-l-l-l-l-o … this is not a breeding exercise. It isn’t just having children (like a bunch of fish that fertilize a bunch of eggs and then both parents swim off and the eggs either survive off of instinct or they don’t!) but the rearing of children that matters.

Yes, one must have the children before they can be reared - but once this biological feat is accomplished - we find that children that lack a warm and supportive atomsphere have some real issues when they become older. This rearing needs to take place in an environment where both male and female adults are present to provide love and role model examples and how both sexes interact in a loving way. None of this can be done in a SS arrangement.

Men and women are simply hard-wired differently. And, while I am sure that there are those who would claim that such a difference is discriminatory or ‘unfair’ - it is the nature of human sexuality. Men are hunters, women are gatherers. Men see problems to solve and women see relationships to build. Differences are identified and are brought together in a workable solution. Of course these are stereotypes - but, I think they will address 98% of the behavioral questions out there.

Truly, Hunter, it is the children who are getting cheated in this whole process by thoroughly messed-up adults who have placed their own self-interest and pleasures ahead of society in general and the children they can influence in particular.

God bless

I agree, men and women ARE wired differently, but I don’t see how this is relevant because gay couples can’t have children. Also, some of the greatest people ever have been products of less than ideal childhoods, and in some cases these have helped shape them into the great people they become.

 

[JonNC]

Hi, Hunter24,

H-e-l-l-l-l-o … this is not a breeding exercise. It isn’t just having children (like a bunch of fish that fertilize a bunch of eggs and then both parents swim off and the eggs either survive off of instinct or they don’t!) but the rearing of children that matters.

Yes, one must have the children before they can be reared - but once this biological feat is accomplished - we find that children that lack a warm and supportive atomsphere have some real issues when they become older. This rearing needs to take place in an environment where both male and female adults are present to provide love and role model examples and how both sexes interact in a loving way. None of this can be done in a SS arrangement.

Men and women are simply hard-wired differently. And, while I am sure that there are those who would claim that such a difference is discriminatory or ‘unfair’ - it is the nature of human sexuality. Men are hunters, women are gatherers. Men see problems to solve and women see relationships to build. Differences are identified and are brought together in a workable solution. Of course these are stereotypes - but, I think they will address 98% of the behavioral questions out there.

Truly, Hunter, it is the children who are getting cheated in this whole process by thoroughly messed-up adults who have placed their own self-interest and pleasures ahead of society in general and the children they can influence in particular.

God bless

And same to you, Tom. Great post!

Anecdotally to be sure, but my experience as a public school teacher is that, generally speaking, children raised in emotionally, morally secure families consisting of a married couple, man and woman, are better positioned to do well in school and society. Not that single parents don’t do their best, and love and care for their children, most do. But the child misses the important dynamic that a man and woman married home can provide.

Jon

 

[stewstew03]

I agree, men and women ARE wired differently, but I don’t see how this is relevant because gay couples can’t have children. Also, some of the greatest people ever have been products of less than ideal childhoods, and in some cases these have helped shape them into the great people they become.

That’s like arguing that we should return to the era of Jim Crow because the civil rights struggle led to the manifestation of our greatest civil rights leaders…

 

[Hunter24]

That’s like arguing that we should return to the era of Jim Crow because the civil rights struggle led to the manifestation of our greatest civil rights leaders…

I’m it’s not. You are trying to put words in my mouth. I’m not saying we should force children to go through hardship. It’s continually being insinuated on this thread that I beleave gay couples are the same as strait ones. Every time I post something someone makes a comment on children which is irelivent because gays can’t conceive. And heres a shocker, even though I think they should be able to marry I also think that it is preferable for an adopted child to go to a strait family because that is the cultural norm in the united states.

 

[misterelm]

There are tribal cultures in Africa that allow same sex marriages among women. Warrior cultures where one woman takes the role of the “man” and the other the “woman”. The “Man” trains as a soldier, hunts, does whatever men do, and women do what women do. How are children created? Men are “borrowed” from other marriages, or single men are used to procreate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this socially in their minds the children that result grow up completely normal as far as the confines of that culture goes. Here’s the kicker. A woman does not become a man by choice but by societal need, more women than men etc. So she voluntarily undergoes the marriage and the protection of the women and that family. This is a culture that is a descendant of practice that likely existed before christianity.

Pedarasty was rampant throughout history. Entire armies made up and strengthened by the relationship of same-sex relations, the idea being they would protect a significant other more than a regular peer. This seems to be akin to what others are mentioning with the Centurion. The RC church went on a rampage in the Renaissance in quelling homoerotic and pederast feelings, thats thousands of years of acceptable use. That’s pederasty being used by armies crusading in the name of Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

It is perfectly your right to vote how you want, however, it is important to remember that it is very possible for democracy’s to fall to the “tyrany of the majority”. Basicly, if a democracy has no limits on its law making abilitys (like our constitution) there is the possibility that the majority may use their control of the vote to impose their will apon the minority. This is how some democracy’s end up persecuting minority’s. This is why the government should REALY stay out of people’s social lives. Otherwise things turn into arguments like the gay marriage one today. Marriage is a religiouse institution, whats the government even doing in a matter of religion.

While I don’t want to derail the topic of this thread, the “tyrany of the majority” is alive and well in the area of the most basic right we have; the right to life. It is the strong against the weak and defenseless, the unborn and the old. I would venture to say that the great majority of those who support gay “marriage” at the same time support abortion and are in favor of making the killing of an unborn child a “right”. Democracy has already become tyranny in this country and around the world.

Freedom does mean that we can do whatever we wish to do. It means that we have the right and the opportunity to do what we ought to do. Homosexuality is contrary to the natural law and is a disordered sexual tendency. Ecclessial communities that approve this behavior and wish to raise it up to the level of a sacrament in the interest of tolerance are in direct violation of God’s will in creating us as man and woman. Matrimony, which means “the making of a mother” (an impossiblitiy between members of the same sex) cannot be placed in the same classification as a homosexual relationship. When we close the sexual act to its ultimate purpose, the gift of life, we violate God’s will.

 

[Publisher]

Well, I don’t know what Quakers do, but the Catholic Church does love and respect our homosexual brothers and sisters, and welcomes them in our parishes.

I’m sure you understood my post to mean other than what you have indicated above…such commentary is “common” when we seek to speak about same sex marriage and GLBTQ people.

Friends seek to bring those in same sex relationships into the life of the Meeting and seek to listen to “that of God” within them just as we would listen and care for our “straight” members…we may not agree with how their lives are conducted…however…we seek to hear “that of God” speak in our midst thru their “voices” and “lives” to reach a greater understanding of God’s grace and mercy as He moves among us…straight and gay alike…if you wish to characterize I meant other wise…not much I can do about that.

Peace to you friend.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Publisher,

As I see it, there are really two issues that have to be honestly addressed.

#1 - No one on this thread has shown disrespect to any homosexual. Period. If there was disrespect shown, then this honestly should be reported to the Mod. Now, we do have more recent condemnations of immoral from St. Paul in chapter 6 his first letter to the Corinthians. Here is the link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/1_Corinthians_6 You will note, he is pretty even handed in dealing with immorality - all of those who refuse to stop sinning will see God. Do you think St. Paul was showing disrespect to drunkards?

#2 The interpretation you have given (or, what was given to you) that this was about victimization is truly classic rationalization. This would be similar to saying the drunkeness is different today because wine is made in a different manner then it was during the tine of St. Paul. And, since there is no evidence of recorded spirits (of the alcoholic variety) drinks in excess of 30% alcolho ) present when St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians - those who drink to excess on those drinks missed his encouragement to lead sober lives. Paul’s 4th chapter in his second letter to Timothy warns about those who seek new doctrine because they have rejected the sound doctrine of God Here is a link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/2_Timothy_4

I honestly can understand that those who engage in behavior that is clearly condemned in the Bible would rather have much less attention directed toward themselves. And since we live in culture that wants to tolerate everything - beginning with sin - and those who point sin out are today’s ‘intolerant’ because they are guilty of ‘hate speech’ - we find ourselves getting further and further away from God’s Inspired Word.

Ultimately, we are called to hate sin but love the sinner. Final judgment is up to God - but, pointing our error is an act of charity for both the sinner and those who may be tempted to sin. We are all called upon to take sides - either for God and His Commands or the Devil and his perversity.

God bless

I have attended MCC with some MCC Friends…there were lots of children and same sex couples in the congregation.

Those congregations which accept same sex marriage and GLBTQ people without question in their fellowships do not “explain away” those few biblical passages that on the surface appear to condemn same sex relationships…they offer an alternative explanation rooted and grounded in cultural and ritual practices of the time those passages were written…the most “stringent” passages used by most Christians against GLBTQ people are found in Leviticus or the story of Sodom in Genesis…in Leviticus the prohibitions are found in a “string” of prohibitions no Christian today even considers abstaining from.

The story of Sodom is more about sexual violence against strangers in their midst as a form of victimization than homosexual sex…while we may disagree with our reasons as to why same sex relationships are accepted or rejected in our respective faith communities…it is not some insidious plan to overthrow family and social constructs so our “sins” can be “approved” by society.

I has more to do with embracing the “stranger within our gates” and realizing that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters are worthy of your respect and love and fellowship as they too bear the mark of God…no matter what we personally feel about their lives they too have something to bring to our fellowships and teach us about the grace and astounding mercy of God.

 

[Contarini]

Isn’t blessing the same sex relationships really the same as saying you pretty much agree with them?

But it’s not saying they are marriage. One could argue that it’s worse, because it blesses a sexual relationship which is admitted to be non-marital.

However, the question is: “what is being blessed”? Not the sexual relationship per se, some would say, but the love and commitment of the two people for each other, which is in itself perfectly legitimate.

Edwin

 

[Publisher]

Hi, Publisher,

As I see it, there are really two issues that have to be honestly addressed.

#1 - No one on this thread has shown disrespect to any homosexual. Period. If there was disrespect shown, then this honestly should be reported to the Mod. Now, we do have more recent condemnations of immoral from St. Paul in chapter 6 his first letter to the Corinthians. Here is the link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/1_Corinthians_6 You will note, he is pretty even handed in dealing with immorality - all of those who refuse to stop sinning will see God. Do you think St. Paul was showing disrespect to drunkards?

#2 The interpretation you have given (or, what was given to you) that this was about victimization is truly classic rationalization. This would be similar to saying the drunkeness is different today because wine is made in a different manner then it was during the tine of St. Paul. And, since there is no evidence of recorded spirits (of the alcoholic variety) drinks in excess of 30% al

Obvioulsly we “speak” different languages in respect to GLBTQ people…and since those of us who embrace our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters as full members of the Body of Christ do not consider their sexual orientation nor their covenanted relationships to be sinful…we get no further in our discussion that the above.

Peace to you friend.

 

[JonNC]

Hi, Publisher,

As I see it, there are really two issues that have to be honestly addressed.

#1 - No one on this thread has shown disrespect to any homosexual. Period. If there was disrespect shown, then this honestly should be reported to the Mod. Now, we do have more recent condemnations of immoral from St. Paul in chapter 6 his first letter to the Corinthians. Here is the link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/1_Corinthians_6 You will note, he is pretty even handed in dealing with immorality - all of those who refuse to stop sinning will see God. Do you think St. Paul was showing disrespect to drunkards?

I think you make an important point here that kind of cuts both ways.
Scripture is clear about sexual relations outside of marriage, and it isn’t specific regarding the combinations of genders invloved. Outside of marriage it is a sin. Heterosexual and homosexual.
On the one hand, we cannot deceive ourselves into thinking that God has become hip with the times, and now thinks its ok. OTOH, we should also not deceive ourselves into thinking homosexual relations are worse than heterosexual relations outside of marriage.

Jon

 

[Publisher]

I think you make an important point here that kind of cuts both ways.
Scripture is clear about sexual relations outside of marriage, and it isn’t specific regarding the combinations of genders invloved. Outside of marriage it is a sin. Heterosexual and homosexual.
On the one hand, we cannot deceive ourselves into thinking that God has become hip with the times, and now thinks its ok. OTOH, we should also not deceive ourselves into thinking homosexual relations are worse than heterosexual relations outside of marriage.

Jon

Absolutely agree…those who are against same sex marriage…are strangely silent in comparison when the subject of heterosexual cohabitation and “illicit marriages”…but then…same sex marriage only effect a small minority of people…the latter effects a great portion of society and our fellowships…but as i stated… speaking against the “heteerosexual” issues in comparison…it’s strangly…silent.

I see a gross inequity between how “gay” people are treated and spoken of and how “straight” people in similar “moral” states…are addressed and treated.