Same Sex Marriage?

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May I just add that marriage technically is a state issue considering its a piece of paper. It’s also a basic human right.
Homosexual people are humans.
I’m atheist, but the Catholic Church needs to get with the modern society, any wonder numbers are down.
 
May I just add that marriage technically is a state issue considering its a piece of paper. It’s also a basic human right.
Homosexual people are humans.
I’m atheist, but the Catholic Church needs to get with the modern society, any wonder numbers are down.
Numbers=truth? New=good? Old=bad?
 
May I just add that marriage technically is a state issue considering its a piece of paper. It’s also a basic human right.
Homosexual people are humans.
I’m atheist, but the Catholic Church needs to get with the modern society, any wonder numbers are down.
Driving is also a basic right. Should we start licensing blind people to drive?
 
May I just add that marriage technically is a state issue considering its a piece of paper. It’s also a basic human right.
Homosexual people are humans.
I’m atheist, but the Catholic Church needs to get with the modern society, any wonder numbers are down.
Heads up - I’m about to Godwinize this thread.

When one thinks that truth is determined by the majority, one would do well to remember that Hitler was voted into office.
 
Hence the Godwin alert 😃 The point does stand, though - popular opinion isn’t a reliable way to determine if something is good.
Everybody isn’t stupid or bigoted or fall under one of the other emotional word categories radical gay activists use. Why was this on the ballot? No answer? So, who’s stopping gay people from living how they want right now? Nobody needs my or anybody else’s permission to live how they want right now.

Fill a bathtub with mustard to clean up? Why should I care?

Peace,
Ed
 
So, exactly how does same-sex “marriage” not harm society?

It’s completely relevant. See below.

People who drive low-emission vehicles are eligible for a tax break. Hi

Only three states don’t require autoAre we therefore punishing SUV drivers? nsurance, and two of those require some form of bond or fee as an alternative. Several insurance companies charge more for a policy based on the color of the vehicle. Is this punishing those who like red?

New York City has banned the sale of sugar sodas over 16oz in any restaurant. Is this punishing those who like Coke?

If one owns a home, one gets a tax break for any interest paid on the mortgage. Are we punishing those who choose to rent by not extending a tax break to them? People who have cars pay multiple taxes on them (sales, gasoline, property tax, licensing fees…). Are they being punished because of their choice of transport?

As a smoker, am I being punished by not being allowed to light up in my workplace?

Really? All of those who fought for civil rights never presented any argument other than “We want it”?

This isn’t about liberty at all. This is about people who want the benefits attached to an institution while ignoring the core basis of that institution.

As an analogy: Alaska pays a dividend to residents due to profits from the Alaska Pipeline. I would also like to receive this dividend. Is it a violation of my rights that I be required to move to Alaska to collect this benefit?
 
So, exactly how does same-sex “marriage” not harm society?
Marriage by a justice of the peace is just a paper giving tax breaks and other legal privileges. It does not pretend to be a religious sacrament. It harms society no more than applying for a building permit harms society.

I can’t prove something doesn’t harm society. That’s proving a negative, impossible except through observation. And since none of the states which have legalized same-sex marriage have descended into debauchery and chaos, we must conclude that it doesn’t harm society.

Of course, one could say that any immoral action made legal harms society. (But if this was the case, the Church would also require Catholics to vote against letting divorced people remarry. Since they aren’t, they are wrong either way: either they have too much influence in government, or not enough.
People who drive low-emission vehicles are eligible for a tax break.
Using this logic, same-sex marriage should be legal, but only heterosexual couples who have children should get a tax break. You can’t compare “not getting a tax break” with “it’s illegal”. They are two totally different concepts. Legalizing something means just accepting it, giving a tax break means promoting it.
Only three states don’t require auto insurance. and two of those require some form of bond or fee as an alternative.
Extra taxes =/= illegal
Are we therefore punishing SUV drivers? Several insurance companies charge more for a policy based on the color of the vehicle. Is this punishing those who like red?
Extra taxes =/= illegal
New York City has banned the sale of sugar sodas over 16oz in any restaurant. Is this punishing those who like Coke?
Actually, it is. While I could present a very convincing argument that soft drinks probably harm society more than same-sex marriage, the fact is the overall effect they have is minimal. Sure, they may contribute to obesity, but if you wanted to combat that, requiring people to exercise would be much more effective. So no, I don’t agree with banning Coke in a Democratic society.
If one owns a home, one gets a tax break for any interest paid on the mortgage. Are we punishing those who choose to rent by not extending a tax break to them? People who have cars pay multiple taxes on them (sales, gasoline, property tax, licensing fees…). Are they being punished because of their choice of transport?
Extra taxes =/= illegal
As a smoker, am I being punished by not being allowed to light up in my workplace?
I actually agree with this one. Smoking next to someone else negatively affects their health as well as yours. Allowing someone to get married by a justice of the peace has no effect on your Catholic marriage. If you say it does, you are saying humans can negatively affect a Sacrament created by God, which in my opinion is borderline blasphemy.
Really? All of those who fought for civil rights never presented any argument other than “We want it”?
I did not say that, did I? I said they were not required to prove that giving them equal rights would benefit society.

But since you mention it, they didn’t use “we want it” as an argument, but then again, neither are the homosexual activists, so that’s an irrelevant argument. Both gay rights activists and race rights activists use the argument “we deserve it”.
This isn’t about liberty at all. This is about people who want the benefits attached to an institution while ignoring the core basis of that institution.

As an analogy: Alaska pays a dividend to residents due to profits from the Alaska Pipeline. I would also like to receive this dividend. Is it a violation of my rights that I be required to move to Alaska to collect this benefit?
Heterosexual couples who do not have children contribute just as much to society as homosexual couples who do not have children.

Therefore, since heterosexuals who do not have children are allowed to receive the benefits, homosexuals who do not have children should be able to receive the benefits.

That’s like Alaska giving dividends from the pipeline to citizens of Georgia, but not Florida.
 
Marriage by a justice of the peace is just a paper giving tax breaks and other legal privileges. It does not pretend to be a religious sacrament. It harms society no more than applying for a building permit harms society.
When that permit is for creating something that is a mockery of the basis of human society, how can it be justified?
I can’t prove something doesn’t harm society. That’s proving a negative, impossible except through observation. And since none of the states which have legalized same-sex marriage have descended into debauchery and chaos, we must conclude that it doesn’t harm society.
Then explain exactly how it is GOOD for society.
Of course, one could say that any immoral action made legal harms society. (But if this was the case, the Church would also require Catholics to vote against letting divorced people remarry. Since they aren’t, they are wrong either way: either they have too much influence in government, or not enough.
True - no-fault divorce has done a massive amount of damage to our society, and is directly responsible (in my opinion) for opening the door for “gay rights” activists to even bring this issue forth as a question. However, the current battleground is over the very definition of marriage as a union of two complimentary sexes. Once that is won, maybe we can look at reining in the view of marriage as a temporary arrangement to be entered into as a convenience.
Using this logic, same-sex marriage should be legal, but only heterosexual couples who have children should get a tax break. You can’t compare “not getting a tax break” with “it’s illegal”. They are two totally different concepts. Legalizing something means just accepting it, giving a tax break means promoting it.
Most promoters of same-sex “marriage” claim that those couples should receive the same benefits as married couples. There is no law keeping two men or two women from claiming that they are “married”. The law is that they are not recognized by the government, because government recognition allows the couple to claim the benefits offered by the government.

The examples I cited aren’t “extra taxes”, these are cases where a benefit is offered to a particular set of people based on their behavior. Is it fair that one who doesn’t engage in the behavior in question is denied the benefit? Of course.
I actually agree with this one. Smoking next to someone else negatively affects their health as well as yours. Allowing someone to get married by a justice of the peace has no effect on your Catholic marriage. If you say it does, you are saying humans can negatively affect a Sacrament created by God, which in my opinion is borderline blasphemy.
It isn’t that any individual marriage will be damaged, it’s that marriage will have been devalued to the point of being meaningless to society at large. Already, because of marriage being seen as a temporary arrangement, we are seeing higher rates of single-parent households than ever before.
I did not say that, did I? I said they were not required to prove that giving them equal rights would benefit society.
But they did. Every discriminatory law that was overturned was overturned because there was a benefit. One of the biggest arguments used by lawmakers against against segregation was that it would save money to not have to provide separate facilities for white and black.
But since you mention it, they didn’t use “we want it” as an argument, but then again, neither are the homosexual activists, so that’s an irrelevant argument. Both gay rights activists and race rights activists use the argument “we deserve it”.
For civil rights? Of course they deserved it - race has no bearing on behavior, and is not something that can be controlled. For gay couples? Of course they don’t. It’s their free choice to enter into a homosexual relationship - nobody is forcing them to do so.
Heterosexual couples who do not have children contribute just as much to society as homosexual couples who do not have children.

Therefore, since heterosexuals who do not have children are allowed to receive the benefits, homosexuals who do not have children should be able to receive the benefits.

That’s like Alaska giving dividends from the pipeline to citizens of Georgia, but not Florida.
The difference is that married couples - as a class - are capable of producing children. Same-sex couples - however they choose to define their relationship - are not, and never can be. The pipeline benefit is in place to encourage people to move to Alaska so that there can be more people to support the industries there. Individual support of the pipeline doesn’t matter - the benefit is for ALL Alaskan residents.

The government rightly views tests or questions regarding the fertility of a given couple as excessively intrusive, and so gives all married couples the benefit of the doubt because of their potential to produce children. When a couple has a child, their benefits increase through further tax breaks.

Same-sex couples, no matter how “nice” or “loving” they might be as persons, are always and under all circumstances biologically incapable of producing children.

This isn’t Georgia and Florida - it’s Alaska and Mauritania.

Here’s a question for those who support same-sex “marriage”: Show why I, as a single heterosexual male should be denied the same tax breaks as those sought by same-sex couples. After all, I love myself, so why shouldn’t the government recognize that love I bear myself and give me a break because of it?
 
When did driving become a basic human right?
I don’t think you understood Crimsom’s post so let me explain. What he is responding is to the statement that “marriage is a basic human right.” A basic human right is a right inherent to the dignity of the human being which cannot be curtailed in any way by the State . Marriage is an entity heavily regulated by the State: You cannot marry if you are under 18, you cannot marry a blood relative, you must be of a sound mind, you cannot be impotent, bigamy is a crime, before getting married you need the State to issue a “marriage license” and in order to get that license you need to do x,y and z, and the list goes on and on and on. You don’t get to say “hey I want to be married” and you are automatically married (which would happen with a basic human right…you just get it automatically because you are a human), instead you have to comply with several State requirements in order to get it… just like when getting a driver’s license!!! So given the fact that marriage is just like getting a driver’s license, if we are going to say that marriage is a basic human right (therefore being automatic) then driving is also a human right and blind people should be allowed to drive, in the same way as then an adult should be allowed to marry an eight year old, a man should be allowed to have 15 wives, mothers should be allowed to marry their sons and schizophrenics should be allowed to marry!
 
Heterosexual couples who do not have children contribute just as much to society as homosexual couples who do not have children.

Therefore, since heterosexuals who do not have children are allowed to receive the benefits, homosexuals who do not have children should be able to receive the benefits.
Frankly, I have never understood this. Why should either heterosexual or homosexual “couples” who do not have children receive any tax breaks? That would seem to discriminate against single individuals. Why does the mere fact that a person is “with” someone else engender a tax break? Wasn’t the original intent of these kinds of incentives to foster the creation of new citizens by assisting and facilitating procreative couples to bring new life into existence and to help defray the cost of doing so?

What do two people merely living together provide to society that would entitle them to tax breaks that an individual on their own does not equally have title to? This just seems discriminatory to single people.
 
Frankly, I have never understood this. Why should either heterosexual or homosexual “couples” who do not have children receive any tax breaks? That would seem to discriminate against single individuals. Why does the mere fact that a person is “with” someone else engender a tax break? Wasn’t the original intent of these kinds of incentives to foster the creation of new citizens by assisting and facilitating procreative couples to bring new life into existence and to help defray the cost of doing so?
For heterosexual couples, it’s because the potential exists for them to have children. For same-sex pairings, this is impossible.
What do two people merely living together provide to society that would entitle them to tax breaks that an individual on their own does not equally have title to? This just seems discriminatory to single people.
If the two people are of complimentary sexes, then there is the potential for children.

As far as offering tax breaks to same-sex couples, I’d like to see an explanation as to why those breaks should not then apply to single people.
 
For heterosexual couples, it’s because the potential exists for them to have children. For same-sex pairings, this is impossible.

If the two people are of complimentary sexes, then there is the potential for children.
Then the tax breaks should come into play when children or dependents are present.
As far as offering tax breaks to same-sex couples, I’d like to see an explanation as to why those breaks should not then apply to single people.
Me, too.
 
When that permit is for creating something that is a mockery of the basis of human society, how can it be justified?
Tax breaks are not the basis for human society. Perhaps you are referring to the RELIGIOUS rite of marriage, which is the basis of human society, which has little to nothing in common with civil marriages or civil unions
Then explain exactly how it is GOOD for society.
It is good for society in the same way that letting people drive blue cars is good for society. Freedom = good, unless it can be proven to be bad.
True - no-fault divorce has done a massive amount of damage to our society, and is directly responsible (in my opinion) for opening the door for “gay rights” activists to even bring this issue forth as a question. However, the current battleground is over the very definition of marriage as a union of two complimentary sexes. Once that is won, maybe we can look at reining in the view of marriage as a temporary arrangement to be entered into as a convenience.
According to the Church, a Catholic MUST vote against same-sex marriage in every election (if possible). According to the Church, this is a matter of faith.
A Catholic is NOT required to vote against allowing no-fault divorce in every election.

Therefore, according to your logic, once gay-marriage stops becoming a hot topic, Catholics will no longer be required to vote against it. This means that the current political climate of our nation changes God’s rules for us as humans, which is highly doubtful. So either

A) The Church is wrong in not requiring Catholics to vote against no-fault divorce in every election, or

B) The Church is wrong in requiring Catholics to vote against same-sex marriage in every election
The examples I cited aren’t “extra taxes”, these are cases where a benefit is offered to a particular set of people based on their behavior. Is it fair that one who doesn’t engage in the behavior in question is denied the benefit? Of course.
Therefore, any heterosexual couple which does not have children should not get the benefits of marriage.
For civil rights? Of course they deserved it - race has no bearing on behavior, and is not something that can be controlled. For gay couples? Of course they don’t. It’s their free choice to enter into a homosexual relationship - nobody is forcing them to do so.
You are comparing apples and oranges.

A fairer comparison would be to say that it’s someone’s free choice to enter into an interracial relationship, and that no one is forcing them to do so.
The difference is that married couples - as a class - are capable of producing children. Same-sex couples - however they choose to define their relationship - are not, and never can be. The pipeline benefit is in place to encourage people to move to Alaska so that there can be more people to support the industries there. Individual support of the pipeline doesn’t matter - the benefit is for ALL Alaskan residents.
Correction: FERTILE heterosexual couples, as a class, are capable of producing children. Sterile couples are not, and never will be.

Your argument hinges on how you define a “class”. If, instead, we defined the class as “sterile heterosexual couples”, then the benefit rules would be consistent.

We could also define the class as “any two humans”, and simply note that both sterile heterosexual couples and homosexual couples are small portions of that class that can’t have children, but should still deserve the same benefits.
The government rightly views tests or questions regarding the fertility of a given couple as excessively intrusive, and so gives all married couples the benefit of the doubt because of their potential to produce children. When a couple has a child, their benefits increase through further tax breaks.
So all we need to do is say that asking people what their gender is is an infringement on their privacy, and the same rule would apply to homosexual couples. If an exceptionally unattractive woman with facial hair and a manly build walks up to get married to a man, I think it would be incredibly rude to ask what her gender is. Therefore, we should not ask what peoples gender is before they get married. It makes just as much sense as asking about their fertility prospects.
Same-sex couples, no matter how “nice” or “loving” they might be as persons, are always and under all circumstances biologically incapable of producing children.
So are sterile couples.
Here’s a question for those who support same-sex “marriage”: Show why I, as a single heterosexual male should be denied the same tax breaks as those sought by same-sex couples. After all, I love myself, so why shouldn’t the government recognize that love I bear myself and give me a break because of it?
You are ignoring the other benefits to same-sex civil unions, like automatic inheritance rights, ability to pass on pension benefits, etc; none of which apply to individuals.
History proves this.
Saying something doesn’t make it true. Care to give an example?
 
Then the tax breaks should come into play when children or dependents are present.
At least in the UK, there are tax breaks (and other financial advantages) that only apply to couples (or singles) actually raising children, and there are yet other advantages that accrue to expectant parents.

In my opinion this ‘problem’ goes away if you just admit that legal marriage and the advantages involved are about something other than procreation. :rolleyes:
 
Correction: FERTILE heterosexual couples, as a class, are capable of producing children. Sterile couples are not, and never will be.
Therefore your finger is an eye.

A finger can see as well as a blind eye.

You just have ignore the purpose of the eye and marriage.
 
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