Same-sex unions / marriage

[eamonnroma]

There is much debate in Italy at the moment about civil unions for same-sex couples. The prime minister is trying to bring in a bill legalizing these unions. The European Court of Human Rights has ordered Italy to provide legal rights/recognition of same-sex couples. The only EU countries, apart from Italy, not to have same-sex legislation are some of the ex Eastern European countries.

In Italy the opponents are arguing that these unions damage the family. How? ‘Traditional’ families can continue as they always have done - how can the fact that two people of the same sex having some legal rights, who would be together anyhow, be any danger to families? Italy, along with many other countries, cannot hold its head up high on the traditional family unity. High divorce rate, unmarried mothers, people living together and never getting married…

As the word ‘marriage’ can be emotional, why not, everywhere let there be civil unions for everybody. Then anybody belonging to whichever Church could have a religious service in their Church. These would keep Church and State well apart from other. Marriage would then be seen as ‘religious’ for ‘religious’ people. Nobody’s human rights are damaged.

I believe that marriage as a sacrament was only formally defined as a sacrament by the Council of Verona in the 12th century. The second Council of Lyon and the Council of Florence in 1439 defined marriage as being a sacrament. Before that marriage was purely a civil function, and was not the concern of the Church in the way that it is today.

Heterosexual couples in the UK are now complaining that they are not allowed to have civil unions, only marriage, while same-couples can choose between the two. Although at this point, what is the difference?

 

[eamonnroma]

There is much debate in Italy at the moment about civil unions for same-sex couples. The prime minister is trying to bring in a bill legalizing these unions. The European Court of Human Rights has ordered Italy to provide legal rights/recognition of same-sex couples. The only EU countries, apart from Italy, not to have same-sex legislation are some of the ex Eastern European countries.

In Italy the opponents are arguing that these unions damage the family. How? ‘Traditional’ families can continue as they always have done - how can the fact that two people of the same sex having some legal rights, who would be together anyhow, be any danger to families? Italy, along with many other countries, cannot hold its head up high on the traditional family unity. High divorce rate, unmarried mothers, people living together and never getting married…

As the word ‘marriage’ can be emotional, why not, everywhere let there be civil unions for everybody. Then anybody belonging to whichever Church could have a religious service in their Church. These would keep Church and State well apart from other. Marriage would then be seen as ‘religious’ for ‘religious’ people. Nobody’s human rights are damaged.

I believe that marriage as a sacrament was only formally defined as a sacrament by the Council of Verona in the 12th century. The second Council of Lyon and the Council of Florence in 1439 defined marriage as being a sacrament. Before that marriage was purely a civil function, and was not the concern of the Church in the way that it is today.

Heterosexual couples in the UK are now complaining that they are not allowed to have civil unions, only marriage, while same-couples can choose between the two. Although at this point, what is the difference?

 

[Ron_Conte]

The Council of Trent infallibly taught that all seven Sacraments were established by Christ. Natural marriage was raised to the dignity of a Sacrament by Christ, during His ministry, not centuries later.

Same sex relationships or unions are not a true type of marriage. It is wrong to claim that something is marriage, which in fact is not.

 

[Joe_5859]

Marriage is not just a religious institution and should not be relegated to solely the religious sphere. Marriage preexists all religions and governments. It is as old as the human race. Yes, for those who are baptized, marriage is raised to the level of a sacrament. But marriage is also broader than that.

Bringing up all of the (many) ways that marriage has already been undermined is a red herring. People use the argument to imply some sort of, “Well, heterosexual people have already messed up marriage, so what right have they to complain of it getting messed up further?” While it is true and very scandalous that marriage has suffered from divorce and all the rest, the solution is not to just forgo any meaningful definition of marriage at all, nor to abandon it to the whim of whoever controls the political power. The solution is to clarify what marriage really is rather than blur the lines even further.

A redefinition of marriage impacts everyone. We cannot structure a just society around a silo mentality whereas what affects some doesn’t effect me personally and so I don’t need to bother with it. Marriage is the foundation of society. It is what holds families together. It is the context in which new human life is created and cared for. Marriage is something, quite apart from our own ideas. We cannot arbitrarily define it to suit our own ideas and expect that there will have no impact outside some narrow group of people. There will be consequences and those consequences will be far reaching.

 

[Regina7]

The argument of gay marriage not affecting others is garbage. Here’s just one way it has affected me personally. The public schools now teach that homosexuality is “good” and equal to Hetero relationships. The public schools also teach that anyone who disagrees with this is a bully (gotta love how anti-bullying programs seem to go hand in hand with homosexuality). So now my children have to decide between following a biblical truth and following the crowd.

 

[edwest2]

It will harm society, any society. The Church is clear about this.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

In the US, some states offered to give homosexuals couples the same benefits as heterosexual marriage but that was rejected since, in the view of a gay activist group, “it would make us second-class citizens.” They wanted the word “marriage.”

Regarding Civil Rights:

jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby_gay_marriage.php3

wnd.com/2014/09/black-pastors-called-silver-bullet-against-gay-marriage/

Children will be taught gay marriage is normative in schools.

abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1230620

Gay activists are actively looking for Churches to perform their “marriage” ceremony in the US. Why? Is their civil marriage not enough?

Ed

 

[edwest2]

The argument of gay marriage not affecting others is garbage. Here’s just one way it has affected me personally. The public schools now teach that homosexuality is “good” and equal to Hetero relationships. The public schools also teach that anyone who disagrees with this is a bully (gotta love how anti-bullying programs seem to go hand in hand with homosexuality). So now my children have to decide between following a biblical truth and following the crowd.

Just guide your children with the truth. Bullying was common in schools for decades, but it was not really a big deal until LGBT activists pointed out bullying LGBT young people is wrong. No one should have been bullied for any reason for decades but now, due to attempts to normalize LGBT behavior, it’s a big deal? Sorry, I was bullied and beaten up for no reason except some other kid wanted to prove he was tough, that he was a “man.” An overweight relative had to switch schools because she was getting a lot of attention from a bully who kept calling her fat.

No bullying at all, for anyone. Teach your kids the truth and why it’s true.

Ed

 

[kozlosap]

The argument of gay marriage not affecting others is garbage. Here’s just one way it has affected me personally. The public schools now teach that homosexuality is “good” and equal to Hetero relationships. The public schools also teach that anyone who disagrees with this is a bully (gotta love how anti-bullying programs seem to go hand in hand with homosexuality). So now my children have to decide between following a biblical truth and following the crowd.

Kids grow up and end up developing their own belief system concerning every issue imaginable - sometimes they agree with their parents, other times they are 180 degrees away from what they were taught. Teens have their own friends and groups and by the time they are in college most know exactly how they feel about LGBTQ individuals.

 

[edwest2]

Kids grow up and end up developing their own belief system concerning every issue imaginable - sometimes they agree with their parents, other times they are 180 degrees away from what they were taught. Teens have their own friends and groups and by the time they are in college most know exactly how they feel about LGBTQ individuals.

That should change. Turning 18 does not infuse knowledge or wisdom.

shop.catholic.com/how-to-stay-catholic-in-college.html

amazon.com/Moving-Forward-Staying-Catholic-College/dp/0985357525

The True Faith and the Truth do not change just because someone becomes an adult. Being with Jesus, and knowing Him, is our goal.

Best,
Ed

 

[Sandlot]

There is much debate in Italy at the moment about civil unions for same-sex couples. The prime minister is trying to bring in a bill legalizing these unions. The European Court of Human Rights has ordered Italy to provide legal rights/recognition of same-sex couples. The only EU countries, apart from Italy, not to have same-sex legislation are some of the ex Eastern European countries.

In Italy the opponents are arguing that these unions damage the family. How? ‘Traditional’ families can continue as they always have done - how can the fact that two people of the same sex having some legal rights, who would be together anyhow, be any danger to families? Italy, along with many other countries, cannot hold its head up high on the traditional family unity. High divorce rate, unmarried mothers, people living together and never getting married…

As the word ‘marriage’ can be emotional, why not, everywhere let there be civil unions for everybody. Then anybody belonging to whichever Church could have a religious service in their Church. These would keep Church and State well apart from other. Marriage would then be seen as ‘religious’ for ‘religious’ people. Nobody’s human rights are damaged.

I believe that marriage as a sacrament was only formally defined as a sacrament by the Council of Verona in the 12th century. The second Council of Lyon and the Council of Florence in 1439 defined marriage as being a sacrament. Before that marriage was purely a civil function, and was not the concern of the Church in the way that it is today.

Heterosexual couples in the UK are now complaining that they are not allowed to have civil unions, only marriage, while same-couples can choose between the two. Although at this point, what is the difference?

The reason why what you’re suggesting can’t happen (or, at the very least, doesn’t happen) is because certain religious authorities claim a veto power on the extent to which the secular government recognizes and defines the institution of marriage.

 

[Regina7]

Just guide your children with the truth. Bullying was common in schools for decades, but it was not really a big deal until LGBT activists pointed out bullying LGBT young people is wrong. No one should have been bullied for any reason for decades but now, due to attempts to normalize LGBT behavior, it’s a big deal? Sorry, I was bullied and beaten up for no reason except some other kid wanted to prove he was tough, that he was a “man.” An overweight relative had to switch schools because she was getting a lot of attention from a bully who kept calling her fat.

No bullying at all, for anyone. Teach your kids the truth and why it’s true.

Ed

Absolutely. No bullying anyone, for any reason. But the problem is the school taking a side on homosexuality- they are not neutral. Schools teach that excess weight is harmful to one’s health, while they also teach that bullying an overweight person is wrong.

 

[Regina7]

Kids grow up and end up developing their own belief system concerning every issue imaginable - sometimes they agree with their parents, other times they are 180 degrees away from what they were taught. Teens have their own friends and groups and by the time they are in college most know exactly how they feel about LGBTQ individuals.

So does that mean I just sit back and let my kids figure this out for themselves?

 

[edwest2]

So does that mean I just sit back and let my kids figure this out for themselves?

Teach them. That’s all you have to do.

Ed

 

[clem456]

There is a very simple reason that promoting same sex “marriage” harms society.
It is a deception in regard to basic human nature. Deception cannot promote the general welfare and dignity. A deception in one area of human nature detracts from the humanity of every human being.

 

[Viki63]

So does that mean I just sit back and let my kids figure this out for themselves?

Please don’t do that,
My daughter went to Catholic school through 6th grade, She now supports gay “marriage” and is full of arguments for it.
Please explain the truth to your children. They will hear you even if they seem not to be listening.
My daughter will listen to me respectfully, but it would be simpler if I had started earlier.

.

 

[Regina7]

Please don’t do that,
My daughter went to Catholic school through 6th grade, She now supports gay “marriage” and is full of arguments for it.
Please explain the truth to your children. They will hear you even if they seem not to be listening.
My daughter will listen to me respectfully, but it would be simpler if I had started earlier.

.

I do speak the truth. I was responding to kozlosap, who seemed to say it doesn’t really matter what I say since my kids will be influenced by peers. While I know peer pressure is strong, I think we discount the power of the parents.

 

[eamonnroma]

Gay activists are actively looking for Churches to perform their “marriage” ceremony in the US. Why? Is their civil marriage not enough?

Ed

If they are practising Christians, it could be that they wish to dedicate their union and their love to God.

 

[Bookcat]

If they are practising Christians, it could be that they wish to dedicate their union and their love to God.

Such would be to no understand what they are seeking and the impossibility of such.

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#III

 

[clem456]

If they are practising Christians, it could be that they wish to dedicate their union and their love to God.

Recognizing there might be positive aspects of this relationship (like any other), how can this union be in the full sense which constitutes the union of a man and woman (what we have always called “marriage”)?

If the gay union is not in that full sense, why should we attempt to say it is the same thing, when it is not? Isn’t that a deception?

If they are Christians, how do they reconcile with:
“God created them from the beginning male and female…and the two shall be one flesh”.

I’m not sure how a practising Christian avoids that.

And I am not detracting from anyone’s relationship. I’m simply pointing out reality. If we start with a deception about two people, how can we expect their full human dignity to be upheld?