Same sex wedding

[Trident_H]

It’s not really shunning, though; it’s not attending an event that you can’t square with your moral perspective.

Shunning implies not inviting them to Thanksgiving dinner, striking them from the Christmas card list, and ignoring their very existence.

Let’s say that you really don’t like guns. They make you uncomfortable, you think that murder rates would drop astronomically if guns were banned tomorrow, you have a close relative who was murdered in a drive-by shooting, and you honestly believe that there is no moral reason to own one.

Fred, your cousin, is into guns. I mean,* really* into guns. This makes you uneasy, but you like Fred. He’s a nice guy. He’s generous to a fault, volunteers at the homeless shelter weekly, and, the gun thing aside, is the sort of person that you wish other people would be.

Fred decides to fulfill his lifelong dream of opening a gun store/shooting range, and throws a massive Opening Day bash to celebrate it. Of course, being Fred, he invites you, too. This is a Really Big Deal for Fred, who’s saved and planned for the last ten years to be able to do this. You realize that, and you also know Fred well enough to know that he’s got a solid business plan and will probably do well. Insofar as his doing well, you’re happy for him, but you still believe that private gun ownership is blatantly immoral.

Do you

a) announce that Fred is dead to you, the scum of the earth, et all?
b) send a note to the effect of “Sorry I can’t come, but I wish you the best!”
c) attend, feeling like a complete hypocrite the whole time because your presence implies support for something you cannot morally support at all?

Hint: when taking a multiple-choice test, answer b) is statistically most likely to be correct.

(Yes, I know that homosexuality and gun ownership are not the same thing. Go with it for the moment.)

Thanks for writing it out all in that way. I mean I sort of get you here. But the only slight detail is that Fred now insists on walking around with his most prized possession. A Ruger M77. It was even the whole reason he wanted to open the shop to begin with.

So now he insists on bringing it to all private parties too. So you didn’t like guns before. You don’t agree with his shop. And you know he and his new gun are never far apart from each other.

How do you ever invite Fred over?

I mean my parents refused to come to my Easter initiation into the Church. They wouldn’t even let my sisters come (though one came anyway). So I sometimes get mixed feelings when I start seeing stuff like this through a different lens. Because that sure felt like a shunning at the time.

I don’t know what to think. I really don’t want to muddy this water anymore than it is. These choices are hard. It’s hard to stand for convictions. I’m a bit untested in it I guess. So maybe I’d better sit the rest of this one out. I’m clearly not 100% objective in my view on this. For pretty obvious reasons.

Peace UbiCaritas. Thanks for giving me so much of your time.

-Trident

 

[josh987654321]

In polite society one need not be pressed for a reason of declining an invitation to a social event. I’m sorry but we can’t make it should suffice. If a pushy cousin does press the op further I suggest a diplomatic answer. But the cousin probably will not ask a question they may not want an honest answer to.

I agree that* “I’m sorry but we can’t make it”* will probably suffice (for the time being), however, the difference I believe is that unless they are totally naïve and in the dark about your views on marriage and the family (which I think will eventually come up sooner or later), it won’t take too much guess work for them to see the real reason why you are not attending, so I would rather say myself rather than them making assumptions, because I think the assumptions may be worse and more damaging.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts, I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[EnglishTeacher]

In polite society one need not be pressed for a reason of declining an invitation to a social event. I’m sorry but we can’t make it should suffice. If a pushy cousin does press the op further I suggest a diplomatic answer. But the cousin probably will not ask a question they may not want an honest answer to.

Exactly. When you send out wedding invitations, you don’t expect everyone to attend (usually about a third decline); and you don’t normally ask people why they couldn’t come.

It is perfectly acceptable to RSVP “Sorry, we will be unable to attend” without any further explanation.

 

[EasterJoy]

We got invited to my husband’s cousin’s same sex wedding. I don’t want to go because I don’t agree with it, but I feel SO bad about not going because I really like his cousin and fiance. I wish they had not invited me.

By the way, your husband’s cousin could not politely exclude you from the invitation list unless you and he had already established an understanding that leaving you off of the list would be the most mutually respectful way to recognize your differences. That kind of open and generous mutual sense of each other is quite rare.

Because this is an event to which he has to invite all of his cousins and their spouses or else invite none of them, good manners require that he invite you, even if he would rather not invite anyone he knows does not approve of the ceremony and what it represents. He cannot take the chance of offending you publicly, even if he takes a low view of you and your view of what he is doing, because you haven’t put him on the spot to do that. Likewise, good manners require that you send your regrets without explicitly reiterating your unchangeable moral opposition to the ceremony taking place at all. You do not say things that will cause other people pain unless you have some hope that speaking will also has a chance of having a salutary effect that acting without speaking would not have had.

Yes, if you thought saying something painful might actually change things or provide a truth to someone who does not have it, you do need to say it. It is impossible, however, that your cousin is not aware of what the Church teaches regarding what he and his friend propose to attempt. That is why you ought to decline the invitation without any comment about your reasons. Just say that you regret to say you won’t be there, and that’s all.

 

[PaulinVA]

Culture Warrior position or Christian position?

Sometimes we confuse the two.

 

[Viki63]

To me, the idea of gay sex is disgusting. But even more disgusting to me is the idea of abandoning my friends because the Church has withdrawn itself from them, not allowing them to celebrate their love for one another. Remember, it is the Church that has thrown them out, made them unwelcome to celebrate their marriage, and not the other way around.

Hi Mike,
The church has not thrown out your friends by not allowing them to celebrate their union.

The catechism says (2356): "They must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359: Homosexual persons are called to chastity, By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."

These people are called to the same holiness all of us are called to. We should not lie to them by celebrating sin; that is not friendship, that’s cowardice disguised as kindness.

.
.

 

[mommy_k]

We got invited to my husband’s cousin’s same sex wedding. I don’t want to go because I don’t agree with it, but I feel SO bad about not going because I really like his cousin and fiance. I wish they had not invited me.

What does your husband think? Is he very close with his cousin? I am aaking this so you will know how to decline, and perhaps it would be your husband’s job to do this.

It is always nicer imho, that if you have a close realtionship with a family member and cannot for some reason attend thier wedding-call them and tell them the reason. They may not understand, but they will repect your honesty, and that you cared enough to make the call.

If it is a distant relationship-then send regrets without reason.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

I think a short, to the point and polite decline would be best. “Our apologies, we will not be able to be there,” should be sufficient.

 

[josh987654321]

What does your husband think? Is he very close with his cousin? I am asking this so you will know how to decline, and perhaps it would be your husband’s job to do this.

It is always nicer imho, that if you have a close realtionship with a family member and cannot for some reason attend thier wedding-call them and tell them the reason. They may not understand, but they will repect your honesty, and that you cared enough to make the call.

If it is a distant relationship-then send regrets without reason.

I agree.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

You should not go because same-sex marriage goes against Christian values.

Just a clarification… I would perhaps say ‘Roman Catholic’ teaching. If you say ‘against Christian values,’ you would be inaccurate. Many Christians - like myself - very much support marriage between same genders.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Just a clarification… I would perhaps say ‘Roman Catholic’ teaching. If you say ‘against Christian values,’ you would be inaccurate. Many Christians - like myself - very much support marriage between same genders.

Since you brought it up…

Saying " Roman Catholic teaching". Is also inaccurate to the other rites of the Catholic Church. It’s Catholic teaching… Roman or otherwise.

 

[Rau]

The thing is it just feels like I’d be shunning people I love. Yeah for a good reason maybe. But still.

Maybe it’s because I grew up that way. Being told to drop people who didn’t fit the mold.

You are excusing yourself from an event, not “dropping” anybody. Or do you also intend to avoid these persons from this point onwards?

 

[Rau]

… the gay couple is just as deserving of my support

In what particular endeavours are they deserving of your support? In anything they feel is important to them?

And the gay couple needs me to stand beside them and be there for them

Need you? Really? You mean they will be unhappy if you do not?

But even more disgusting to me is the idea of abandoning my friends

Do you equate absenting yourself from a ceremony (that offends the Catholic faith) equivalent to severing all ties with your friends? Really?

…the Church has withdrawn itself from them, not allowing them to celebrate their love for one another. Remember, it is the Church that has thrown them out, made them unwelcome to celebrate their marriage, and not the other way around.

What? So the Church changed the nature of marriage at some point did she? That’s news to me.

Your remarks beg the question of “what is marriage?” Take a look at this short video which talks about the nature of marriage and without any reliance on a religious premise.
youtube.com/watch?v=an2TU58LlTE

The video identifies two “alternative” views of what is marriage. Only the 2nd can be right if marriage can involve 2 parties of the same sex.

I am making moral judgments, but based on humanity…

Your moral judgement seems to based on the principle of doing whatever makes another happy. I assume were there 3 persons (rather than 2) that wished to enter a polyandrous union, and they were your friends, you’d be there to support them in that also?

 

[Trident_H]

You are excusing yourself from an event, not “dropping” anybody. Or do you also intend to avoid these persons from this point onwards?

Depends how you decline. I guess.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

In what particular endeavours are they deserving of your support? In anything they feel is important to them?

Need you? Really? You mean they will be unhappy if you do not?

Do you equate absenting yourself from a ceremony (that offends the Catholic faith) equivalent to severing all ties with your friends? Really?

What? So the Church changed the nature of marriage at some point did she? That’s news to me.

Your remarks beg the question of “what is marriage?” Take a look at this short video which talks about the nature of marriage and without any reliance on a religious premise.
youtube.com/watch?v=an2TU58LlTE

The video identifies two “alternative” views of what is marriage. Only the 2nd can be right if marriage can involve 2 parties of the same sex.

Your moral judgement seems to based on the principle of doing whatever makes another happy. I assume were there 3 persons (rather than 2) that wished to enter a polyandrous union, and they were your friends, you’d be there to support them in that also?

I am guessing Mike’s argument would (for some odd reason) not apply to a cousin who asked for support in having an affair, or visiting a prostitute. Such vacuous arguments using flowery language never actual pass muster when we talk about anything but gay “marriage”.

Everyone choose where to draw the line in terms of their support. At least the Church has been clear for 2000 years or so on her lines, and they don’t shift like sand on a beach.

 

[Trident_H]

I am guessing Mike’s argument would (for some odd reason) not apply to a cousin who asked for support in having an affair, or visiting a prostitute. Such vacuous arguments using flowery language never actual pass muster when we talk about anything but gay “marriage”.

Everyone choose where to draw the line in terms of their support. At least the Church has been clear for 2000 years or so on her lines, and they don’t shift like sand on a beach.

I guess that’s a point. It’s true I’d never go celebrate someone getting a new job at a brothel. Or finally getting their big break with the mob. Or wanting a cheer-on for their 100th break-in.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

I guess that’s a point. It’s true I’d never go celebrate someone getting a new job at a brothel. Or finally getting their big break with the mob. Or wanting a cheer-on for their 100th break-in.

And why not? Is it about supporting them or about whether or not you in good conscience can support them in their endeavor? That’s why the argument falls flat. (note, I would not support them in these choices either). Everyone has a conscience that defines the limits of their support. The Church’s aid in that regard has been unwavering since Christ. Love is not about indulging someone’s every desire, regardless of their own well-being.

Now where the Church is not specific, we fill in the protocol with our own moral compasses and intellect. But to use the argument of “not abandoning a relative” and then deciding when it okay to abandon them seems a bit inconsistent.

 

[Trident_H]

And why not? Is it about supporting them or about whether or not you in good conscience can support them in their endeavor? That’s why the argument falls flat. (note, I would not support them in these choices either). Everyone has a conscience that defines the limits of their support. The Church’s aid in that regard has been unwavering since Christ. Love is not about indulging someone’s every desire, regardless of their own well-being.

Now where the Church is not specific, we fill in the protocol with our own moral compasses and intellect. But to use the argument of “not abandoning a relative” and then deciding when it okay to abandon them seems a bit inconsistent.

Right. I guess I was looking too close to the personal side of things. And forgot that sometimes indulging the people we love is the worst thing we can do. If we really love them.

The other thing I forgot is the other people watching us. As we lead by example. I think I’ve changed my mind on this OP. I don’t think you should go.

Peace guys.

-Trident

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Since you brought it up…

Saying " Roman Catholic teaching". Is also inaccurate to the other rites of the Catholic Church. It’s Catholic teaching… Roman or otherwise.

Perhaps this is a semantics concern. The different rites would be included, as you said, yes. But there are many other branches of the Catholic Church not under the Bishop of Rome that would disagree with such teaching. The Old Catholics, Anglo-Catholics, Celtic Catholics, Independent Catholics, etc. to name a few.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Perhaps this is a semantics concern. The different rites would be included, as you said, yes. But there are many other branches of the Catholic Church not under the Bishop of Rome that would disagree with such teaching. The Old Catholics, Anglo-Catholics, Celtic Catholics, Independent Catholics, etc. to name a few.

No true follower of Christ could support gay marriage.