San Francisco Cathedral Architecture

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ibkc said:
The second point may be true, but I’m not sure how you can support the first, not knowing the backgrounds of the people offering opinions.
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Because I’ve read the forums for a long time. The population that seeks out CA/CAF is not unbiased to begin with. Surf around CAF. On average there is a profound dislike of Roger Cardinal Mahony, OLAC and what is often referred to as “modern” architecture. Without debating the merits of those dislikes, they still exist and that skews the results.

It took me 10 seconds on Google to find 14 reviews of OLAC that were strongly in favor of OLAC and this was from people who have actually visited the structure. So while that sample is also not random, neither is this one.
ibkc said:
My opinions are based on the fact that I have studied (on the graduate level) sacred architecture and specifically, the development of church and cathedral architecture from Roman times to the Renaissance, and the various aesthetic philosophies that went into that development. It wasn’t my major of studio (I am a studio artist) but we did go into pretty great depth and I wrote some papers on the subject. Also due to my undergrad and graduate art education, I know more than the average bear about modern and contemporary architecture. So, I consider myself a fairly well-informed about this particular topic and qualified to form a basic opinion about OLAC and any other church or cathedral based on photos and videos, without actually having been to some of them.
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I don’t think anyone has the ability to form a truly accurate opinion about any structure based on pictures and YouTube videos. The very fact that you said “…if I hadn’t known I was looking at a cathedral, it would have taken me a while to figure out that I wasn’t looking at a huge convention center.” proves that.

No individual, particularly one with a background in design would ever confuse OLAC for a “huge convention center” while attending Mass there. It just wouldn’t happen.
 
Having read some of the reviews, I do not really see much merit in therm. I worked for the tourism industry for awhile and I can tell you that some of these reviews do not amount to a hill of beans. One time, I booked a multi-night stay at the Menger Hotel in San Antonio even though some of the reviews said that it wasn’t very good and that they would rather stay a new hotel. I enjoyed myself while at this historic hotel and really didn’t want to leave. In fact, next time I go to San Antonio, I would rather stay there than at the Valencia.

Furthermore, not all of the reviewers were Catholic, so, they may not have understood the importance of sacred space. I found the ticket validation rather upsetting. Since when do I have to have my car ticket validated to visit a church?

The Cathedrals in San Francisco, Oakland and Los Angeles suffer from the fact that a genuine Sensus Fidei is missing. Rather than glorifying ourselves, we should be focusing on rendering a suitable House of Worship for God. Solomon went through great measures to construct the Temple in Jerusalem, using the finest materials and the finest artisans around to build it. It also helped that he probably had direct instruction from God. After all, the Lord dictated to Moses the manner in which all things liturgical for the Hebrews would be done.
 
Navarre said:
No individual, particularly one with a background in design would ever confuse OLAC for a “huge convention center” while attending Mass there. It just wouldn’t happen.
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:rolleyes: I dunno; if you blindfolded me, drove me there without telling me where we’re going, took me inside at a time when no Masses were being said, and then took off the blindfold, that might be an interesting exercise. If I were attending Mass there, I would presumably know I was in a cathedral.
 
Navarre said:
I LOVE the Cathedral of Christ the Light in Oakland. I have been inside (I am not merely judging it from photos) and it’s awesome. Some of the furnishings do not meet my personal taste but all in all it’s an awesome structure.
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This is much what I’ve heard too - my wife has been there, and although it is not her taste personally, given the style of architecture they chose they did a nice job of it.
 
I said my last post was the end, but I just can’t stand it. We’re right back to where we were almost exactly 24 hours ago: the business of “reviewers” telling others what is “art” and what is not. It appears that some folks seem to think that most CAF members have no taste and/or are intellectually challenged. My, how superior. 😦

No one on this earth has the right to say that because he/she, or some “reviewer” or some “critic” says “yada yada yada” (or whatever) about something, that anyone else on this good (if globally warmed) earth has to like it, or appreciate it, or “understand” it. That was the point of my last post, and it is the point again in this one.

Frankly, I care less what a “google result” says. And even less what the over-paid “critics” have to say. An education in a field does not taste make. The matter at hand is art, not empirical science or theology. Which means it’s a matter of personal taste.
 
Navarre said:
Still, I don’t find anything “cartoonish” about the structure. I’m curious, have you ever attended Mass there? I have never met anyone personally who has used the ugly slur “Taj Mahony” and has actually attended Mass there. Conversely, I have met many people who have never been to OLAC (or who only claim to have been) who were experts on its design and construction.
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I actually know an entire group of people who attended “Mass” there and thought it was a hideous eyesore, and call it “Taj Mahoney” or “Rog Mahal”…
 
ibkc said:
:rolleyes: I dunno; if you blindfolded me, drove me there without telling me where we’re going, took me inside at a time when no Masses were being said, and then took off the blindfold, that might be an interesting exercise. If I were attending Mass there, I would presumably know I was in a cathedral.
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Then you’re not much of an expert. Actually the experience begins as you “climb” the ambulatory. I thought that was hyperbole when the architect mentioned it in the early stages of the design. It wasn’t.
 
MrDickerson said:
I actually know an entire group of people who attended “Mass” there and thought it was a hideous eyesore, and call it “Taj Mahoney” or “Rog Mahal”…
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Nasty slurs like that have no place in Christendom – no matter how good they might make some people feel. I would feel very sorry for anyone (on more than one level) who referred to OLAC as a “hideous eyesore.” That paints such a negative picture of anyone actually saying/believing that.

To be honest I question the veracity of your statement. Such slurs are not uncommon amongst those who have never visited OLAC. Rather rare in my experience with those who have actually make the effort to worship there.
 
Navarre said:
Because I’ve read the forums for a long time. The population that seeks out CA/CAF is not unbiased to begin with. Surf around CAF. On average there is a profound dislike of Roger Cardinal Mahony, OLAC and what is often referred to as “modern” architecture.
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It wouldn’t change my opinion at all regarding these buildings if I was told that their architect was Pope Benedict XVI and their chief contractor was St. Joseph the Worker.

Ugly is ugly.

Yet, there is hope. Compare the aforementioned buildings with America’s newest shrine and decide for yourself.

stroik.com/portfolio/ourladyofguadalupe/#set02

guadalupeshrine.org/Home/Home.asp
 
Navarre said:
Then you’re not much of an expert.
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Wait. I said that if I went there to attend Mass, it would be obvious I was in a cathedral. How does that make me not much of an expert? That makes no sense. 🤷

to someone else, you wrote:
Nasty slurs like that have no place in Christendom – no matter how good they might make some people feel.
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Kind of like how praise and worship songs don’t belong in Catholic Christendom, no matter how good they might make some people feel? 😃
 
MrDickerson said:
I actually know an entire group of people who attended “Mass” there and thought it was a hideous eyesore, and call it “Taj Mahoney” or “Rog Mahal”…
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And you put “Mass” in quotes because you feel architecture can invalidate the Eucharistic celebration?
 
ibkc said:
Wait. I said that if I went there to attend Mass, it would be obvious I was in a cathedral. How does that make me not much of an expert? That makes no sense.
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What you actually said was:
ibkc said:
I dunno; if you blindfolded me, drove me there without telling me where we’re going, took me inside at a time when no Masses were being said, and then took off the blindfold, that might be an interesting exercise. If I were attending Mass there, I would presumably know I was in a cathedral.
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If it was in your case then you don’t know much about architecture. It’s obviously a church/cathedral. Any ecclesial artist/architect would (or at least should) recognize the (rather funky looking) cathedra and the rather sublime altar, baptistery, aumbry and tapestries.
ibkc said:
Kind of like how praise and worship songs don’t belong in Catholic Christendom, no matter how good they might make some people feel?
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That’s ludicrous. It also has nothing to do with this thread.

Praise/worship song definitely have a place within the Church. We sign them before and after Bible study here locally.
 
Mattapoisett64 said:
And you put “Mass” in quotes because you feel architecture can invalidate the Eucharistic celebration?
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With regards to the Mass at OLAC, they are some of the best planned and most orthodox Masses I have ever attended. Easily the best homilies I have ever heard in person (and I have heard Fr. Corapi preach at a Mass) have been by Cardinal Mahoney and Fr. Francis Mendoza.
 
Navarre said:
It’s obviously a church/cathedral. Any ecclesial artist/architect would (or at least should) recognize the (rather funky looking) cathedra and the rather sublime altar, baptistery, aumbry and tapestries.
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It seems to me that when somebody has to explain to you why you should regard something as beautiful before you can see it as beautiful, that’s a pretty good sign it isn’t beautiful.
 
Navarre said:
If it was in your case then you don’t know much about architecture. It’s obviously a church/cathedral. Any ecclesial artist/architect would (or at least should) recognize the (rather funky looking) cathedra and the rather sublime altar, baptistery, aumbry and tapestries.
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You are absolutely cracking me up. Next time I visit LA, I will be sure to visit this “Taj Mahony” and I will remember this thread fondly.
 
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