Sanctification

[Third_Day]

Below is from the Southern Baptist website.

“Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God’s purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person’s life”.

Question for non-Catholics: How does one become sanctified?
Define “moral and spiritual maturity”.
How does one know he has “growth in grace?”

 

[TriuneUnity]

Below is from the Southern Baptist website.

“Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God’s purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person’s life”.

Question for non-Catholics: How does one become sanctified?
Define “moral and spiritual maturity”.
How does one know he has “growth in grace?”

Baptism.
A growth in resisting the world, the flesh, and the devil.
By daily remembering his Baptism, and putting to death the sinful desires of the flesh, reception of the Sacrament of the Altar and continued use of the other means of grace.

 

[Third_Day]

Baptism.
A growth in resisting the world, the flesh, and the devil.
By daily remembering his Baptism, and putting to death the sinful desires of the flesh, reception of the Sacrament of the Altar and continued use of the other means of grace.

Is it necessary to be sanctified to enter heaven?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Is it necessary to be sanctified to enter heaven?

It would be necessary to be experientially sanctified throughout the course of one’s life. It is our purpose in the world to proclaim the gospel and to love and serve our neighbors. This isn’t possible unless we are growing in holiness. It is also the outgrowth of our union with Christ. If we aren’t being conformed to Christ’s image, then we do not have union with Him. However, because of our union with Christ, we are already pure before God’s judgment seat and we will be personally sanctified to perfection when we enter heaven.

 

[Third_Day]

=TriuneUnity;6529181]It would be necessary to be experientially sanctified throughout the course of one’s life

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But what if we are not completely sanctified at the time of death?

It is our purpose in the world to proclaim the gospel and to love and serve our neighbors. This isn’t possible unless we are growing in holiness. It is also the outgrowth of our union with Christ. If we aren’t being conformed to Christ’s image, then we do not have union with Him. However, because of our union with Christ, **we are already pure **before God’s judgment seat and we will be **personally sanctified **to perfection when we enter heaven.

How can we be “already pure” because of our union with Christ? Some are united to Christ more fully than others. Some have attained more holiness than others. When we die we will all have some imperfections on our soul so how are we “already pure” at the time of death?

 

[TriuneUnity]

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But what if we are not completely sanctified at the time of death?

How can we be “already pure” because of our union with Christ? Some are united to Christ more fully than others. Some have attained more holiness than others. When we die we will all have some imperfections on our soul so how are we “already pure” at the time of death?

The Christian qua Christian is sinless, having died to sin. Only the sinful flesh clings on in this life. At death, the sinful flesh will not be present. Simul iustus et peccator.

 

[Third_Day]

The Christian qua Christian is sinless, having died to sin. Only the sinful flesh clings on in this life.** At death, the sinful flesh will not be present**. Simul iustus et peccator.

At death, the sinful soul will be presented to Christ.
If “only the sinful flesh clings on in this life” how does a persons soul end up in hell?

 

[TriuneUnity]

At death, the sinful soul will be presented to Christ.
If “only the sinful flesh clings on in this life” how does a persons soul end up in hell?

We’re talking about Christians here, correct? We’re not addressing unbelievers.

 

[Third_Day]

We’re talking about Christians here, correct? We’re not addressing unbelievers.

Are you saying that Christians cannot end up in hell? A Christian cannot commit a mortal sin, a deadly sin that separates him from God? Christians do not have free will?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Are you saying that Christians cannot end up in hell? A Christian cannot commit a mortal sin, a deadly sin that separates him from God? Christians do not have free will?

If a Christian separates himself from God through apostasy, or unbelief, he’s no longer a Christian. Sin, per se, does not separate the Christian from God. You’re going into too many other issues at once, though. I am referring to a Christian who dies in the faith.

 

[Third_Day]

=TriuneUnity;6537608]If a Christian separates himself from God through apostasy, or unbelief, he’s no longer a Christian

. As long as you “believe” you are saved, correct?

Sin, per se, does not separate the Christian from God

What does John mean when he says “there is sin which is mortal?”.1 John 5:16
Is he only referring to “unbelief”?

You’re going into too many other issues at once, though.** I am referring to a Christian who dies in the faith**

These issues are all related.
Can a Christian, who is in the faith, fall into the sin of adultery?
Can a Christian that dies with the the sin of adultery on his soul enter into eternal life with God? Yes or no.

 

[TriuneUnity]

. As long as you “believe” you are saved, correct?

As long as they have faith, they are in Christ and have the full forgiveness of sins. In the narrow sense they are saved, because they are justified, in the broader sense, they will be saved in toto at the resurrection.

What does John mean when he says “there is sin which is mortal?”.1 John 5:16
Is he only referring to “unbelief”?

Unbelief is certainly a part of what John is referring to. One must remember the context of 1 John in that is directed as a polemic especially against the false teachers (docetics), who were teaching Christ has not come in the flesh. 2:19, 26 also further give context to 5:16. Any unrepentant sin can lead to death. But if a believer is open to repentance and God’s forgiveness, his sin will not condemn him. If one is in sin and refuses to repent of their sin, they do not have faith and will die in their sins. If one refuses to repent and confess that Jesus is the Christ, there is no point in asking God to forgive that person who stands condemned for his refusal of God’s love and forgiveness.

However, using the logic that John is specifically referring to sin that is worse than others, does that mean Catholics should be admonished NOT to pray for those who are in mortal sin?

These issues are all related.

They are. However, you were speaking of Christians. I did not think to bring non-Christians in to it.

Can a Christian, who is in the faith, fall into the sin of adultery?
Can a Christian that dies with the the sin of adultery on his soul enter into eternal life with God? Yes or no.

If a Christian falls in to adultery, we have no reason to think that that person has not abandoned the faith. If they refuse to repent of their sin, they are outside of Christ.

 

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=TriuneUnity;6539738]As long as they have faith, they are in Christ and have the full forgiveness of sins. In the narrow sense they are saved, because they are justified, in the broader sense, they will be saved in toto at the resurrection.

Isn’t “faith” more than just “believing?”. What does John mean when he says “For this is the love of God, that we** keep his commandments**. And his commandments are not burdensome” 1 John 5:3
What does Paul mean when he says “obedience leads to righteousness?” Rom.6:16

Any unrepentant sin can lead to death

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That is Catholic dogma

But if a believer is **open to repentance **and God’s forgiveness, his sin will not condemn him.

That is Catholic dogma

If one is in sin and refuses to repent of their sin, they do not have faith and will die in their sins

. Refusing to repent is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

using the logic that John is specifically referring to sin that is worse than others, does that mean Catholics should be admonished NOT to pray for those who are in mortal sin?

John is saying that the mortal sin is so serious that it separates the sinner from God’ grace. The sinner must confess that mortal sin. There is no quarantee that our prayers wil bring him to repentance… Verse 15 “and if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him”.

John says that “all wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal” yet you seem to believe that all sins are equal.

If a Christian falls in to adultery, we have no reason to think that that person has not abandoned the faith. If they refuse **to repent **of their sin, they are outside of Christ.

You have mentioned repentance several times. I thought you believed that we are saved by faith alone? You believe that repentance, along with faith, is necessary to be saved. Why are you Lutheran?

 

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Isn’t “faith” more than just “believing?”.

No.

What does John mean when he says “For this is the love of God, that we** keep his commandments**. And his commandments are not burdensome” 1 John 5:3

Faith produces love, of course.

What does Paul mean when he says “obedience leads to righteousness?” Rom.6:16

You left out the entire context of this.

John is saying that the mortal sin is so serious that it separates the sinner from God’ grace. The sinner must confess that mortal sin. There is no quarantee that our prayers wil bring him to repentance… Verse 15 “and if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him”.

Of course it’s no guarantee. That doesn’t answer the question, though. Should we not pray for someone in adultery because it’s a “mortal” sin?

John says that “all wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal” yet you seem to believe that all sins are equal.

All sin is equally damning. However, what is more likely to cause a fall into repeated sin, lack of repentance and apostasy: breaking the speed limit, or adultery?

You have mentioned repentance several times. I thought you believed that we are saved by faith alone? You believe that repentance, along with faith, is necessary to be saved. Why are you Lutheran?

We are saved by Christ alone. Repentance is the natural result of believing that you are a sinner, and have been redeemed by Christ’s work on the cross. Why did you turn this into a discussion about sola fide?

 

[Third_Day]

=TriuneUnity;6540283]No.

Faith is more than just believing. Even the demons believe. The first Christians did not just accept Christ as their Savior. They also accepted apostolic authority. The apostolic teaching on confession, repentance, the Eucharist, Baptism, the laying on of hands. All of that is part of faith.

Faith produces love, of course.

Again, faith is more than believing, it is love of God. And if we love God we will keep His commandments.

You left out the entire context of this.

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness?”

Does the word of God say obedience leads to righteousness or not?

Of course it’s no guarantee. That doesn’t answer the question, though. Should we not pray for someone in adultery because it’s a “mortal” sin?

Of course, we should pray for all sinners. That is not why John is saying… He is simply pointing out the seriousness of mortal sin. THere is no quarantee our prayers will be answered.

All sin is equally damning

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No they are not. Stealing $10 is equal to murder? Lying to my neighbor is equal to commiting adultery with my neighbor? All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.

However, what is more likely to cause a fall into repeated sin, lack of repentance and apostasy: breaking the speed limit, or adultery?

Rejection of God’s grace.

We are saved by Christ alone. Repentance is the natural result of believing that you are a sinner, and have been redeemed by Christ’s work on the cross

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If we are saved by Christ alone then repentance is not necessary. We are saved because we cooperate with the grace given to us.

Why did you turn this into a discussion about sola fide?

Because you contradict yourself. You say we must repent, which is a work. Yet you say we are saved by faith alone. You agree with the Catholic postion of faith and works. Not faith alone, not works alone, faith and works.

I still don’t get your understanding of sanctification. If we are not completely sanctified when we die, God will “declare” us to be sanctified? Is that what you are saying?
What is the Lutheran interpretaion of 1 Cor.3:11-15 which Catholics believe to be a clear teaching on exactly how we are fully sanctified after death, through the purificational fire of purgatory.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Faith is more than just believing. Even the demons believe. The first Christians did not just accept Christ as their Savior. They also accepted apostolic authority. The apostolic teaching on confession, repentance, the Eucharist, Baptism, the laying on of hands. All of that is part of faith.

The faith from which we receive the grace of justification is a trust that Christ has freed us from sin, death, and the devil. The demons do not have this. I agree that one must also accept the teachings of the faith. These result from trust in the person and work of Christ.

Again, faith is more than believing, it is love of God. And if we love God we will keep His commandments.

Of course. But the fruit cannot be confused with the root.

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness?”

Does the word of God say obedience leads to righteousness or not?

Paul is contrasting life under the law of sin, with life under the gospel of grace. The one is in bondage to sin are slaves to sin. This kind of activity eventually leads to death, implying that genuine believers can actually lose their salvation. Sinning leads them in that direction, away from full enjoyment of life with Christ (cf. note on Gal. 5:4). Those who give themselves utterly to sin will die (face eternal punishment). Of course obedience leads to personal holiness and godliness. This doesn’t contradict what Paul has written in the previous five chapters about the grounds of our justification.

No they are not. Stealing $10 is equal to murder? Lying to my neighbor is equal to commiting adultery with my neighbor? All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.

Yes, there is sin that leads to a loss of faith, but in relation to the law, sin is sin and all of it is damnable, “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.” - Jas. 2:10

If we are saved by Christ alone then repentance is not necessary. We are saved because we cooperate with the grace given to us.

It is necessary inasmuch as our faith will lead us to certain actions. If there is no repentance, there is no faith.

Because you contradict yourself. You say we must repent, which is a work. Yet you say we are saved by faith alone. You agree with the Catholic postion of faith and works. Not faith alone, not works alone, faith and works.

No, it isn’t contradictory. It’s two separate issues. Are works necessary for salvation? In the larger scheme of things, yes, they are. There is no salvation without works in that we have been saved unto good works and not unto licentiousness. If there is no sanctity and holiness in life, then that person is not in a right standing with God. The root of the tree (justification, life, forgiveness of sins), will bear good fruit. In the Catholic view, the fruit is bearing the root. Where we disagree is specifically on the one step of salvation that frames the rest of the Christian life, and that is justification. Justification is received through faith in Christ alone.

I still don’t get your understanding of sanctification. If we are not completely sanctified when we die, God will “declare” us to be sanctified? Is that what you are saying?

No, actually sanctified, because the Christian who dies in the faith has the entirety of their sins removed by Christ, which they received in their lives. Once the sinful flesh is dust, the pure soul of the Christian will stand before God without any sin to their account.

 

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=TriuneUnity;6540968]The faith from which we receive the grace of justification is a trust that Christ has freed us from sin, death, and the devil. The demons do not have this**. I agree that one must also accept the teachings of the faith**. These result from trust in the person and work of Christ.

How do you know what the correct “teachings” of the faith are? Your teachings are different then mine. How do we know which faith has the “mind of Christ”, the Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or non-denoms?

Of course. But the fruit cannot be confused with the root.

But the fruit is necessary. " By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so become my disciples" John 15:8

Paul is contrasting life under the law of sin, with life under the gospel of grace. The one is in bondage to sin are slaves to sin. This kind of activity eventually leads to death, implying that genuine believers can actually lose their salvation. Sinning leads them in that direction, away from full enjoyment of life with Christ (cf. note on Gal. 5:4).

Yes. Genuine believers can lose their salvation. Earlier you said this" Sin, per se, does not separate the Christian from God." and this " As long as they have faith, they are in Christ and have the full forgiveness of sins"
Isn’t this a contradiction? A 'genuine believer can actually lose their salvation" and “sin does not separate the Christian from God”.

Those who give themselves utterly to sin will die (face eternal punishment). Of course obedience leads to personal holiness and godliness. This doesn’t contradict what Paul has written in the previous five chapters about the grounds of our justification.

“obedience leads to righteousness” which would include holiness and godliness. So we are not saved by faith alone, it includes holiness and godliness and obedience.

Yes, there is sin that leads to a loss of faith

,Not all sin leads to a loss of faith. Peter denied Christ yet he didn’t lose faith.

but in relation to the law, sin is sin and **all of it is damnable, “**For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.” - Jas. 2:10

All sin is not damnable as we see in 1 John 5. James is not saying that all sins are equal. He is saying the same thing that John said. All wrongdoing is sin. But don’t ignore what John added “there is sin which is not mortal”.
Don’t forget what Jesus said " Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven."

It is necessary inasmuch as our faith will lead us to certain actions. If there is no repentance, there is no faith.

Agree. Repentance is a part of faith

No, it isn’t contradictory. It’s two separate issues. Are works necessary for salvation? In the larger scheme of things, yes, they are

.Agree

There is no salvation without works in that we have been saved unto good works and not unto licentiousness. If there is no sanctity and holiness in life, then that person is not in a right standing with God

.Agree. Sanctity and holiness not just faith

The root of the tree (justification, life, forgiveness of sins), will bear good fruit. In the Catholic view, the fruit is bearing the root

. How is that the Catholic view? Good fruit shows we are cooperating with God’s saving grace. Apart from God’s grace we can do nothing.

Where we disagree is specifically on the one step of salvation that frames the rest of the Christian life, and that is justification. Justification is received through faith in Christ alone

.How do Catholics disagree? How else do we receive justification except through Christ alone? Baptism is a sacrament of faith given to us by Christ. Baptism is the initial justification given to us by Christ. We then begin a process of sanctification. If this process is not completed in this life, Christ will complete it in the final state of purification, purgatory.

No, actually sanctified, because the Christian who dies in the faith has the entirety of their sins removed by Christ, which they received in their lives.

We disagree only on when this will occur. We believe this sanctification will take place after death in purgatory as 1 Cor 3:10-16 shows. Our sinful (not mortal) works will be burned up and the sinner “will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire”

Once the sinful flesh is dust, the pure soul of the Christian will stand before God without any sin to their account.

The soul will stand purified before God only after the cleansing fire where Christ’s sacrifice will be mercifully applied to those that are saved but are not fully sanctified.

 

[TriuneUnity]

How do you know what the correct “teachings” of the faith are? Your teachings are different then mine. How do we know which faith has the “mind of Christ”, the Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or non-denoms?

I imagine the same way you examine and evaluate any tradition. Scripture, the teachings of the Church, etc. Saying that there is an entity which is infallible doesn’t solve the question. You as an individual still have to come to the conclusion that a Church is infallible.

But the fruit is necessary. " By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so become my disciples" John 15:8

No disagreement there.

Yes. Genuine believers can lose their salvation. Earlier you said this" Sin, per se, does not separate the Christian from God." and this " As long as they have faith, they are in Christ and have the full forgiveness of sins"
Isn’t this a contradiction? A 'genuine believer can actually lose their salvation" and “sin does not separate the Christian from God”.

No, it isn’t. A contradiction would be “Christians can lose their salvation and Christians cannot lose their salvation.” Sin, in and of itself, does not separate us from God. We sin every single day in one way or another. Sin which is persistent and unrepented causes a loss of faith, and resists the Holy Spirit, which is continually trying to kill the sin nature.

“obedience leads to righteousness” which would include holiness and godliness. So we are not saved by faith alone, it includes holiness and godliness and obedience.

If you are using “saved” in the wider scope encompassing all of salvation, then I do not disagree. We do not teach that we are saved by faith alone. We teach that we are justified through faith alone.

Not all sin leads to a loss of faith. Peter denied Christ yet he didn’t lose faith.

I agree. Sin which causes a loss of faith would be the closest I would come to calling sin mortal. However, any sin has the potential to cause a loss of faith.

How is that the Catholic view? Good fruit shows we are cooperating with God’s saving grace. Apart from God’s grace we can do nothing. .How do Catholics disagree?

Because Catholics say that the fruit of sanctification leads to the root of (final) justification. Rather than saying that the root of entire justification leads to final sanctification (glorification in heaven).

How else do we receive justification except through Christ alone? Baptism is a sacrament of faith given to us by Christ. Baptism is the initial justification given to us by Christ. We then begin a process of sanctification. If this process is not completed in this life, Christ will complete it in the final state of purification, purgatory.

I agree that Baptism grants the gift of regeneration and faith, which is the means of justification.

It depends on how you’re defining purgatory. If purgatory is a punishment or purgation of temporal sins, then it is superfluous. Christ has already suffered for all of our sins. One is either fully justified or not at all. Again, since I deny eternal security as heterodox, this is not to say that a person cannot be justified, lose justification, and then be justified again.

 

[Third_Day]

=TriuneUnity;6541653]I imagine the same way you examine and evaluate any tradition. Scripture, the teachings of the Church, etc. Saying that there is an entity which is infallible doesn’t solve the question. You as an individual still have to come to the conclusion that a** Church is infallible**.

Scripture tells me that there is such a Church
“whatever you (Peter and the apostles. The Church) bind on earth is bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven”
“Whoever hears you ( the Church) hears Me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me”
“whoever refuses to listen, even to the Church” is removed from the Church.

Sin, in and of itself, does not separate us from God. We sin every single day in one way or another

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Isn’t sin a rejection of God’s grace? Does it not follow that if the sin is mortal we are separated from God’s grace and therefore separated from God? Sin is the cause of our separation from God.

Sin which is persistent and unrepented causes a loss of faith, and resists the Holy Spirit, which is continually trying to kill the sin nature.

The loss of grace because of sin enhances our sin nature.

If you are using “saved” in the wider scope encompassing all of salvation, then I do not disagree. We do not teach that we are saved by faith alone. We teach that we are justified through faith alone.

Where in scripture does it say “we are justified through faith alone?” The only place in scripture where “faith alone” appears, it is rejected. James 2:24

It depends on how you’re defining purgatory. If purgatory is a punishment or purgation of temporal sins, then it is superfluous. Christ has already suffered for all of our sins. One is either fully justified or not at all. Again, since I deny eternal security as heterodox, this is not to say that a person cannot be justified, lose justification, and then be justified again.

How do you interpret 1 Cor. 3:10-15?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Scripture tells me that there is such a Church
“whatever you (Peter and the apostles. The Church) bind on earth is bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven”
“Whoever hears you ( the Church) hears Me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me”
“whoever refuses to listen, even to the Church” is removed from the Church.

I understand that you interpret it that way. I don’t disrespect or ignore your view of those passages as teaching the infallibility of the Magisterium. I have examined them and prayed about them as well. My only point is that you, as an individual, still have to come to agree with how the Roman communion views them.

Isn’t sin a rejection of God’s grace? Does it not follow that if the sin is mortal we are separated from God’s grace and therefore separated from God? Sin is the cause of our separation from God.

Yes, it is a rejection of God’s grace. I think, in light of the 1 John passages, deliberate, willful, continued sin is probably mortal. I wouldn’t disagree with the classification “sin can kill faith and/or cause apostasy.” I just wouldn’t create a specific list of sins that do. In most cases, they’re pretty self-explanatory. In any event, eternal security/OSAS is clearly not consistent with Scripture.

Where in scripture does it say “we are justified through faith alone?” The only place in scripture where “faith alone” appears, it is rejected. James 2:24

James is in a different context than Paul. Paul is addressing how unbelievers are made right with God. James is addressing how believers who possess faith behave.

Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works. Apart from works means apart from anything else. Hence, alone. Actually, I think he argues more for justification by Christ’s merit alone apart from human merit. It’s important to stress that we are Christians, not faith-ians.

How do you interpret 1 Cor. 3:10-15?

Give that the context of the passages is directly related to the ministry of the gospel, I would say that it refers to the work of the ministers in the church and how they establish and build their ministries.