Sanctification

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=TriuneUnity;6569499]I . One is either declared innocent or declared guilty

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You missed this question that I asked. Can you explain Matt. 25:31-46?

How will Jesus will judge us at the end of the world? By how much faith we had? No. Jesus doesn’t even mention faith. To those who did not cooperate with His grace they are condemned to hell. Did they have faith? Yes but some were saved because they cooperated with God’s grace and some were condemned because they did not cooperate with God’s grace and do the good works necessary. That is why James can say we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

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=TriuneUnity;6569499]I keep them, at least outwardly, most of the time. I may not have ever cheated on my wife. That doesn’t mean I haven’t committed adultery. “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

We must be perfect to enter heaven. We neeed not be perfect in this life. What did Jesus tell the rich man? . IF you would to be perfect" give up everything that you have. If we are not perfect in this life we will be made perfect before we enter heaven. We are to pursue holiness in this life. If we do not attain perfect holiness in this life we will be made perfect in purgatory as scripture clearly says.

I wouldn’t disagree with that. I just wouldn’t call it justification

.You’re thinking of works “by themselves” apart from grace. We must be in the state of grace for our works to be a part of justification. It is faith and works.

They are not opposed for the purpose of the Christian life. They are opposed for justification. Otherwise, the ungodly could not be justified.

The ungodly cannot be justified without faith which must come first and works given to us by grace become necessary along with that faith. If works are opposed to justification then James misunderstood the Holy Spirit “we are justified by works, not by faith alone”

I find nothing of initial justification in Scripture. One is either declared innocent or declared guilty.

**“Baptism **now saves you.” 1 Peter 3:21 " You were washed, you were **sanctified, you were justified **" 1 Cor. 6:11

Paul is saying we are justified by faith apart from works of any kind.

Why did Paul say in Gal 5:6 “faith working through love?” Why doesnt Paul say faith without love? If justification requires that faith be apart from works of any kind You need to explain why Paul says “For it is not the hears of the law who are righteous before God, but the **doers of the law **who will be justified”

Your insertion of “works of the law” only referring to the Mosaic covenant regulations is eisegesis. Paul gives the context to works of the law and it is not restricted to works of the Mosaic covenant

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Paul is simply stating what Catholics are stating. Works alone cannot justify us. That is what the Jews believed.

Circumcision was an important part of the nation of Israel, but it was not part of the Mosaic covenant. It was part of the covenant made with Abraham. This fact alone means that Paul is talking about more than the Mosaic law. Again, Paul interprets himself by mentioning specific things, like coveting, that were part of the moral law of God and not limited to Mosaic rituals but to eternally relevant commandments

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So your claim is that Paul was saying to Jewish Christians “we are justified by faith apart from keeping the commandments of God?” Can you enter enternal life without keeping the commandments?

 

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=TriuneUnity;6569515]Romans 3.

How can you interpret Romans 3 to say that Christians cannot keep the moral law?

And the loss that he will suffer is the reward for his works. He does not go through fire. His works do.

Which works are burned up, the good or the bad? Why would he lose the reward for his good works.?

Paul says he suffers loss for the sake of Christ. That doesn’t mean the fires of purgation. It means he suffers loss in the world

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Any suffering that Christians have in this life is for their sanctification. But if that sanctification is not complete in this life there must be additional sanctification in the next. That is what 1 Cor. 3 is addressing.

In the same way, the one who builds his ministry on perishable things will suffer loss in the eternal. Since Paul says they will lose their rewards, the loss that is being suffered is those rewards.

Can you describe exactly what these “rewards " are that the man lost?”

It says nothing about sinful works per se. It says building the ministry through perishable foundations…

Explain exactly what a perishable foundation is?

 

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You missed this question that I asked. Can you explain Matt. 25:31-46?

How will Jesus will judge us at the end of the world? By how much faith we had? No. Jesus doesn’t even mention faith. To those who did not cooperate with His grace they are condemned to hell. Did they have faith? Yes but some were saved because they cooperated with God’s grace and some were condemned because they did not cooperate with God’s grace and do the good works necessary. That is why James can say we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

It also says that the kingdom to which they are entering has been prepared for them from before the foundations of the world. How much cooperation with grace was present on their part before the foundation of the world? There is nothing in the passage about the topic of justification. Of course they do good works. This always follows justification. So naturally, it wouldn’t be the wicked and impenitent entering the kingdom, because they aren’t justified!

 

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We must be perfect to enter heaven. We neeed not be perfect in this life. What did Jesus tell the rich man? . IF you would to be perfect" give up everything that you have. If we are not perfect in this life we will be made perfect before we enter heaven. We are to pursue holiness in this life. If we do not attain perfect holiness in this life we will be made perfect in purgatory as scripture clearly says.

You cannot enter heaven without being perfect in this life. The reason Jesus told the rich man to give up everything he had is because that is what the law demanded. The rich man thought he had kept the commandments, and Jesus reminded him of what the commandments entail. Thereby showing him he hadn’t kept the commandments at all.

You’re thinking of works “by themselves” apart from grace. We must be in the state of grace for our works to be a part of justification. It is faith and works.

Can you tell me how one is in a state of grace without being justified? How can a guilty man be in a state of moral innocence? Again, one cannot be half-justified.

Why did Paul say in Gal 5:6 “faith working through love?” Why doesnt Paul say faith without love? If justification requires that faith be apart from works of any kind You need to explain why Paul says “For it is not the hears of the law who are righteous before God, but the **doers of the law **who will be justified”

The doers of the law will be justified. You are ignoring, however, Paul’s repeated assertions that no one does the law to the degree that is required for justification, which is perfectly.

So your claim is that Paul was saying to Jewish Christians “we are justified by faith apart from keeping the commandments of God?” Can you enter enternal life without keeping the commandments?

No, you cannot enter eternal life without keeping the commandments. Which means you would never get there. Hence, to save us, Christ’s perfect commandment keeping is reckoned as our own. Therefore, in God’s eyes, we have kept the law perfectly. “For God made him who knew no sin to be sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

 

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How can you interpret Romans 3 to say that Christians cannot keep the moral law?

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That includes Christians. Paul says as much when he explains four chapters later just how wicked in the flesh he still is.

Which works are burned up, the good or the bad? Why would he lose the reward for his good works.?

Paul is describing Christian ministry here. That presumes that the one being judged is a Christian. He will not lose his reward for his good works, for these are the gold and the silver. He will lose his reward for those things which he thought were good and should have been good, but were hay and stubble.

Any suffering that Christians have in this life is for their sanctification. But if that sanctification is not complete in this life there must be additional sanctification in the next. That is what 1 Cor. 3 is addressing.

Where in the text either before or after these statements have anything to do with additional sanctification in the afterlife? Your forcing something on the text that simply is not warranted.

Can you describe exactly what these “rewards " are that the man lost?”

Explain exactly what a perishable foundation is?

Rewards are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament. They are never described. So, we’ll have to wait and see. A perishable foundation would be laying down a foundation in the church that is apart from Christ. Given the context of ministers who were proclaiming to be of one party or another (Paul, Cephas), etc.

 

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It also says that the kingdom to which they are entering has been prepared for them from before the foundations of the world. How much cooperation with grace was present on their part before the foundation of the world? There is nothing in the passage about the topic of justification. Of course they do good works. This always follows justification. So naturally, it wouldn’t be the wicked and impenitent entering the kingdom, because they aren’t justified!

Matthew 25:31-simply says that the kingdom has been prepared since the foundation of the world. That line has nothing to do with cooperation with grace unless you want to read God’s foreknowledge into the equation.

You say that works always follow justification. Do you believe in free will? To say that works "always’ follow justification isn’t true. We can only do good works by grace. We can freely accept or reject God’s grace to do or not do good works.
Both the sheep and the goats were justified. God would not send someone to hell unless they rejected His grace to do good works and that is what Matt. 25:31-45 shows us.

 

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=TriuneUnity;6570985]You cannot enter heaven without **being perfect **in this life

. I can see why you are Lutheran. You believe as Luther did that we are only cow dung covered by Christ’s righeteousness.

Can you tell me how one is in a state of grace without being justified? How can a guilty man be in a state of moral innocence? Again, one cannot be half-justified.

When we are justified we are in the state of grace. A guilty man separates himself from God’s grace and he loses his justification. He must confess and repent to be back in God’s grace.

The doers of the law will be justified. You are ignoring, however, Paul’s repeated assertions that no one does the law to the degree that is required for justification, which is perfectly.

We do not have to obey the law perfectly. There are sins that are deadly and sins that are not deadly.

No, you cannot enter eternal life without keeping the commandments.** Which means you would never get there**

.This comes from Luther.

Hence, to save us, Christ’s perfect commandment keeping is reckoned as our own. Therefore, in God’s eyes, we have kept the law perfectly. "For God made him who knew no sin to be sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Luther’s fatal flaw ,and yours, is to see us as cow dung covered over with snow. Yet Paul says we are “a new creation”. Paul says we have been “washed,sanctified, justified”.
Through an infusion of grace into our soul we become a new creation. We can become holy which is necessary for eternal life. Surely you can see this in the lives of people around you. I can see it in nuns, priests,lives of saints and lay people that I have known over the years. To believe that they are just cow dung covered over, that they are just declared to be righteous simply is not the case.

 

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=TriuneUnity;6571005]All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That includes Christians. Paul says as much when he explains four chapters later just how wicked in the flesh he still is.

Of course all have sinned and therefore fall short of the glory of God who is without sin. Paul is simply stating that he is in the process of being saved. He did not believe in eternal security.

Where in the text either before or after these statements have anything to do with additional sanctification in the afterlife? Your forcing something on the text that simply is not warranted.

You’re ignoring that Paul tells ust that this fire will occure on “the Day”. This can only refer to the afterlife.

Rewards are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament. They are never described. So, we’ll have to wait and see.

Doesn’ Paul tell us what the reward is? “For he will render to every man according to his works: To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life” Our reward is eternal life. WIll there be some who have stored up a treasure in heaven.? Yes and they will be given more of the beatific vision of God.

A perishable foundation would be laying down a foundation in the church that is apart from Christ. Given the context of ministers who were proclaiming to be of one party or another (Paul, Cephas), etc.

That’s an interesting interpretation of 1 Cor 3. Christ established only one Church so are you saying that the ministers of the man-made churches whose teachings contradict that of the one Church have laid down a perishable foundation? I would agree with you on that.

 

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Matthew 25:31-simply says that the kingdom has been prepared since the foundation of the world. That line has nothing to do with cooperation with grace unless you want to read God’s foreknowledge into the equation.

Well, it does. The situation is such that the sheep are called sheep and given God’s blessing before their works ever enter into the equation.

You say that works always follow justification. Do you believe in free will? To say that works "always’ follow justification isn’t true. We can only do good works by grace. We can freely accept or reject God’s grace to do or not do good works.
Both the sheep and the goats were justified. God would not send someone to hell unless they rejected His grace to do good works and that is what Matt. 25:31-45 shows us.

Yes, we can reject God’s grace. Those who persevere to the end are those that God has converted. The paradox of Scripture on this point is that God’s grace can be resisted, yet if a person is converted and perseveres to the end, it is solely by the work of God. Sanctification is synergistic, involving the regenerated human will in obedience to God’s commandments. Justification, however, is not.

 

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. I can see why you are Lutheran. You believe as Luther did that we are only cow dung covered by Christ’s righeteousness.

Luther never said that. However, I merely confess with Paul, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

When we are justified we are in the state of grace. A guilty man separates himself from God’s grace and he loses his justification. He must confess and repent to be back in God’s grace.

Only guilty men are justified. God justifies the ungodly. Rejecting that justification and giving oneself over to unbelief, that will certainly lead to apostasy. However, the Roman Catholic belief is that God only justifies the godly.

 

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Of course all have sinned and therefore fall short of the glory of God who is without sin. Paul is simply stating that he is in the process of being saved. He did not believe in eternal security.

I am not sure what that has to do with eternal security. Christians are always sinners and always will be sinners until the end. They are, however, blessed sinners to whom the Lord has not imputed their sin.

You’re ignoring that Paul tells ust that this fire will occure on “the Day”. This can only refer to the afterlife.

It refers to the judgment. No dispute there.

Doesn’ Paul tell us what the reward is? “For he will render to every man according to his works: To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life” Our reward is eternal life. WIll there be some who have stored up a treasure in heaven.? Yes and they will be given more of the beatific vision of God.

One immediately has to ask, if this is true, what the “loss” of those “saved by fire” is? If the “reward” is the eternal state of heaven, and those whose works are burned up do not receive a reward, as v. 15 says, yet they are saved, then where do they go?

That’s an interesting interpretation of 1 Cor 3. Christ established only one Church so are you saying that the ministers of the man-made churches whose teachings contradict that of the one Church have laid down a perishable foundation? I would agree with you on that.

Your polemics aside, it refers to every Christian in ministry.