'Sanctuary city for unborn' ordinances take off in Texas despite pro-choice pushback." A report

[Hume]

Perhaps, but stuff happens which yields a new set of circumstances.

Absolutely.

An in deference to the enlightenment’s emphasis on personal property - with a person’s body being their most sacred - if we can prevent a possible harm to our bodies, we have every right to affect that prevention.

Not an idea I’ve seen promoted here. The risk of maternal deaths associated with maternity are quantifiable and quite low compared with other causes, and you are right to point out the US is not doing as well on this front as other modern countries.

The risk will never be zero for maternal death. Dangerous, potentially fatal complications are still shockingly common.

When my eldest sister had her one-and-only, her delivery of the placenta was incomplete, it broke up. After a few days she went septic and, to be blunt, began to rot from the inside-out, or more specifically, she began to rot from her uterus-out.

Barring access to a procedure that is identical to the one used to treat both feminine endometriosis and abort early-term pregnancies, she’d have died.

An old co-worker that was young and very fit suffered a massive blood pressure spike which prompted her doctor to deliver nearly a month before term for fear she was going to have a stroke.

Pregnancy is and always will be a dangerous affair.

 

[Rau]

An in deference to the enlightenment’s emphasis on personal property - with a person’s body being their most sacred - if we can prevent a possible harm to our bodies, we have every right to affect that prevention.

No matter how slight the risk, we may invoke any means having any consequence - doesn’t sound too enlightened Hume?

 

[Hume]

No matter how slight the risk, we may invoke any means having any consequence - doesn’t sound too enlightened Hume?

If the consequence doesn’t materially affect other people, then there’s no real issue.

Fetuses aren’t people.

 

[Rau]

Fetuses aren’t people.

You can’t defend your claim by assuming the claim…

 

[Hume]

You can’t defend your claim by assuming the claim…

When in doubt, we default to liberty as a bedrock principle of the enlightenment.

I understand that there’s no doubt on your part, but it’s religiously predicated.

I don’t live in some sort of theocracy, I live in a secular state. Religious predilections hold no dominion as a matter of fundamental law.

 

[Rau]

When in doubt, we default to liberty as a bedrock principle of the enlightenment.

The liberty of all.

I understand that there’s no doubt on your part, but it’s religiously predicated.

I’ve not mentioned religion. My offspring as human being is compelling reasoning. Your references to legalities and rights are weak as water.

 

[Hume]

My offspring as human being is compelling reasoning. Your references to legalities and rights are weak as water.

A woman being a human who is endowed with the right to preserve and protect her most sacred property - her body - isn’t weak.

It’s a powerful truism held by a growing share of our society. The denial of it is the support of the most basic enslavement.

thanks for your views, but we’re circling. Last is yours for now.

 

[LilyM]

Rau:

This is the reality of human procreation

Sure. Mom didn’t want to procreate.

This seems to be a commentary on US healthcare.

The idea that pregnancy is a risk-free zone for women that doesn’t still kill them is cavalier and ill-informed.

The idea that, at least for.most women, it is some.sort of major peril fraught with dangers and risks at every turn is equally cavalier and ill-informed.

There are daily activities we undertake such as driving that are statistically pretty hazardous. It may be my choice not.to.drive bit certainly everyone is a passenger from time to time at least.

 

[LilyM]

Rau:

No matter how slight the risk, we may invoke any means having any consequence - doesn’t sound too enlightened Hume?

If the consequence doesn’t materially affect other people, then there’s no real issue.

Fetuses aren’t people.

We in the West are aborting and contracepting ourselves to well.below .replacement rate, and potentially out.of.existence. with all sorts of disastrous impacts on all of us. Usually without anything approaching a genuine medical, financial or psychological need to.avoid what is after all both a perfectly natural and highly necessary function.

 

[Hume]

We in the West are aborting and contracepting ourselves to well.below .replacement rate,

No we aren’t.

Population growth is positive for every western country except maybe Italy and Greece and Greece is shrinking due to emigration.

I don’t want to alarm you, but the population cap of the planet isn’t infinite. We’ll eventually reach a number we’ll hover around. We can hover because we’re aborting and contracepting ourselves into stability or because people are starving to death.

I opt for the former.

 

[pnewton]

When in doubt, we default to liberty as a bedrock principle of the enlightenment.

I guess that is one difference. You default to liberty. I default to not killing someone, or as was in the case of slavery, not enslaving someone.

 

[Hume]

Hume:

When in doubt, we default to liberty as a bedrock principle of the enlightenment.

I guess that is one difference. You default to liberty. I default to not killing someone, or as was in the case of slavery, not enslaving someone.

A that’s the genuine beauty of choice.

Absent some demonstrable fact or basis of law, women can rule their uteri as they see fit.

 

[Hume]

I guess that is one difference. You default to liberty. I default to not killing someone, or as was in the case of slavery, not enslaving someone.

One small addition;

The pro-life stance does enslave someone.

The woman.

 

[Jimbo]

It’s just as arbitrary as skin color lol. Humanity based on location isn’t a great idea.

 

[Hume]

It’s just as arbitrary as skin color lol. Humanity based on location isn’t a great idea.

It’s not based on location. It’s based on development. Same basis with which we discriminate who gets to vote, drink and own a gun and so on…

 

[LilyM]

pnewton:

I guess that is one difference. You default to liberty. I default to not killing someone, or as was in the case of slavery, not enslaving someone.

One small addition;

The pro-life stance does enslave someone.

The woman.

That (for the most part) does not make any sense.

A woman who.chooses to have sex knowing there is always - ALWAYS, no exceptions - a chance of pregnancy, is no more a slave than someone who chooses to get drunk.and drive knowing there is always a risk of an accident that cpuld harm.them.

 

[Rau]

Same basis with which we discriminate who gets to vote, drink and own a gun and so on…

Those judgements are based on the capacity to act responsibly. Right to not be killed is probably not amenable to such an analogy. Or maybe termination should become an available option (to caregivers?, the State?) when mum reaches age 100 - maybe right to not be killed is once again outweighed by some other person’s right.

 

[Jimbo]

The distinction earlier was a baby just pre born from one a week born. There is no significant difference other than location.

But even with development, the things you are talking about aren’t as inalienable as the simple right to life afforded by every human.

If we can abridge that right due to development the. You can do it for a born child. Or say the inalienable right to life starts after puberty.

It’s a bad idea.

 

[Hume]

Hume:

Same basis with which we discriminate who gets to vote, drink and own a gun and so on…

Those judgements are based on the capacity to act responsibly. Right to not be killed is probably not amenable to such an analogy. Or maybe termination should become an available option (to caregivers?, the State?) when mum reaches age 100 - maybe right to not be killed is once again outweighed by some other person’s right.

This is just one slippery slope fallacy after another, which is why it’s not considered by the broader population. “Maybe ‘they’ will just kill you too!” ok…

The distinction earlier was a baby just pre born from one a week born. There is no significant difference other than location.

And once again, this falls to the discussion about the inherent arbitrary nature of lines we’ve already covered.

Guy going 56 in a 55 isn’t materially more dangerous than the guy doing 55 in a 55. But 55 is where the line gets drawn.

A fetus at 40 weeks isn’t materially more developed than the same child born 12 hours later. But birth is where the line gets drawn.

But even with development, the things you are talking about aren’t as inalienable as the simple right to life afforded by every human.

We have a conflict, here. The inalienable right of private property and the supposed right to gestate.

As the mother is a person in ways the fetus is not, the tie-breaker is indubitably in her favor. Otherwise you enslave what is unambiguously a person - mom. The personhood of a fetus is very much up for debate, whether we like that reality or not.

Again, if a woman miscarries - there is no investigation. No one is called to issue a death certificate. This is so because that fetus is not a person in the same way as someone already “here”.

 

[Hume]

Hume:

pnewton:

I guess that is one difference. You default to liberty. I default to not killing someone, or as was in the case of slavery, not enslaving someone.

One small addition;

The pro-life stance does enslave someone.

The woman.

That (for the most part) does not make any sense.

Of course it does.

“I want this out of my body”
“Tough. Regardless the risks involved, you will gestate that child inside your body - even against your will.”

That’s slavery through any lens.

A woman who.chooses to have sex knowing there is always - ALWAYS, no exceptions - a chance of pregnancy, is no more a slave than someone who chooses to get drunk.and drive knowing there is always a risk of an accident that cpuld harm.them.

The consent to sex is not the consent to parenthood.

As a religious matter, if you’d like to think otherwise, fine with me. Just keep your religious views out of my bedroom.
Individually, be just as pro-life as you want to be. Choice lets you do that.