Sanctus Sanctus Sanctus...My First Tridentine Mass!

[wannabee]

oops
Just noticed some rather careless typing

Head coverings - the only Orthodox Christians that I know that insist on it are those from ROCOR and the Old Rite folk - and there BTW the women stand yes stand] on opposite sides of the Church.

I should of course have said that … Rocor and the Old Rite folk - and there BTW the women and men stand yes stand] on the opposite sides of the Church …

sorry

 

[Neithan]

I’ve never been to a Tridentine Mass before, but here in Freiburg, Germany I attended the Allerheilegen High-Mass in the local cathedral and it was awesome. Norvus Ordo of course. The archbishop and about a dozen priests and deacons were present, as well as a full choir and orchestra! They performed F. J. Haydn’s Missa Sancti Nicolai. Plenty of incense was used throughout the Mass, and bells used during the reverently celebrated Eucharistic Consecration. Kneeling is done after the Sanctus and Agnus Dei, with a brief period of standing in between.

I like the new Pauline Mass, and if done properly (which is the norm here in Germany thank God) it is really powerful. I’d like to go to a Tridentine Mass to compare, though. I’m a little confused about the fuss, since the current Roman Missal is supposed to just be a ‘purified’ version of the old one. I realize that the greater flexibility of the Norvus Ordo gives rise to abuses but I wouldn’t fault the Missal itself for that, only the Priests who poorly celebrate it, and their negligent Bishops.

I also went to a Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy here in Freiburg and it was impressive, but not more impressive than a really well done Pauline Latin Mass, I don’t think! Perhaps the problem with Norvus Ordo is primarily American? Back home in Vancouver, Canada it also isn’t nearly as beautiful as here in Europe, so I suppose the difference with the Tridentine would be drastic. I’m glad I got to experience the current Mass here where it’s done properly.

 

[totustuusmaria]

Neithan:

I’ve never been to a Tridentine Mass before, but here in Freiburg, Germany I attended the Allerheilegen High-Mass in the local cathedral and it was awesome. Norvus Ordo of course. The archbishop and about a dozen priests and deacons were present, as well as a full choir and orchestra! They performed F. J. Haydn’s Missa Sancti Nicolai. Plenty of incense was used throughout the Mass, and bells used during the reverently celebrated Eucharistic Consecration. Kneeling is done after the Sanctus and Agnus Dei, with a brief period of standing in between.

I like the new Pauline Mass, and if done properly (which is the norm here in Germany thank God) it is really powerful. I’d like to go to a Tridentine Mass to compare, though. I’m a little confused about the fuss, since the current Roman Missal is supposed to just be a ‘purified’ version of the old one. I realize that the greater flexibility of the Norvus Ordo gives rise to abuses but I wouldn’t fault the Missal itself for that, only the Priests who poorly celebrate it, and their negligent Bishops.

I also went to a Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy here in Freiburg and it was impressive, but not more impressive than a really well done Pauline Latin Mass, I don’t think! Perhaps the problem with Norvus Ordo is primarily American? Back home in Vancouver, Canada it also isn’t nearly as beautiful as here in Europe, so I suppose the difference with the Tridentine would be drastic. I’m glad I got to experience the current Mass here where it’s done properly.

The problem isn’t only American: I’m an American currently living in Austria and I have been travelling around assisting at masses and visiting Churches: all the masses I have been to have been short, vertus populum, none of them have had incense, nobody ever knees (for the most part), there have been very few/none/female altar servers, they have usually opted out of the third reading, oftentimes they substituted other music for the mass parts, and they usually didn’t have either an opening or closing song, or if they did nobody sang it and it was just a mumbling.

I actually can’t wait to get back to the United States where the mass is generally celebrated more reverently.

With that said: I have been to both Tridentine Masses celebrated as they are supposed to and to Novus Ordo masses celebrated as they’re supposed to be.

In general I prefer the Tridentine Masses, but I have been to one Novus Ordo which just took my breath away, and that is currently my favorite mass I’ve ever been to. The problem with the Novus Ordo is in the prayers. It isn’t just a “purified” version of the Tridentine Mass but a new order of the mass all-together, and the prayers have been dirastically simplified to remove most references to saints, sacrifice, difference between priest and people, etc. Also, it is almost impossible to have silence during a Novus Ordo since the parts that the priest is supposed to say by himself are so short and all other parts are said (and are supposed to be said) between the priest and the people.

In the TLM even at a high mass there was silence, especially during the Canon which was only breathed, and the low mass evoked a whole spirituality of silence and reception. That Western Spirituality that I love so much has been so lost since the Second Vatican Council.

It is tragic.

 

[Topher]

wannabee:

Dearie dearie me

Have you ever looked at the text of the Divine Liturgy in English ? Have you counted the number of times the Holy Father is mentioned ? How often is the Holy Father mentioned during Mass ?

His Holiness John Paul II has told us to see we return to our roots - this we are doing .

If you compare the text of the Divine Liturgy of our Father among the Saints , John Chrysostom as used in the EC Churches and the Orthodox Christian Churches you will find that the only real difference between Orthodox DL and Catholic DL is the Commemoration of the Holy Father and of course the names of our Hierarchs.

Now please let’s not have any more of this triumphalist attitude that Latin Catholics are the only real Catholics .

Head coverings - the only Orthodox Christians that I know that insist on it are those from ROCOR and the Old Rite folk - and there BTW the women stand yes stand] on opposite sides of the Church.

Kneeling is penitential , so on a Sunday - the day of the Resurrection - we rejoice ,and you cannot rejoice on your knees.

Now come on - let’s have no more of this we are better than you stuff - we are equal in the eyes of God

AMEN. Let us never forget our Eastern Catholic Bretheren. THEY ROCK! :clapping:

 

[Psalm45_9]

wannabee:

Dearie dearie me

Have you ever looked at the text of the Divine Liturgy in English ? Have you counted the number of times the Holy Father is mentioned ? How often is the Holy Father mentioned during Mass ?

His Holiness John Paul II has told us to see we return to our roots - this we are doing .

If you compare the text of the Divine Liturgy of our Father among the Saints , John Chrysostom as used in the EC Churches and the Orthodox Christian Churches you will find that the only real difference between Orthodox DL and Catholic DL is the Commemoration of the Holy Father and of course the names of our Hierarchs.

Now please let’s not have any more of this triumphalist attitude that Latin Catholics are the only real Catholics .

Head coverings - the only Orthodox Christians that I know that insist on it are those from ROCOR and the Old Rite folk - and there BTW the women stand yes stand] on opposite sides of the Church.

Kneeling is penitential , so on a Sunday - the day of the Resurrection - we rejoice ,and you cannot rejoice on your knees.

Now come on - let’s have no more of this we are better than you stuff - we are equal in the eyes of God

Thank you, I felt the same way.

 

[Neithan]

It seems that most people respect the Tridentine Mass more than the current Novus Ordo… why doesn’t the Vatican ‘Tridentinize’ the current Missal where people feel that it is lacking, and make everyone happy? Simple solution! I know it never works out that way, though.

By the way, I just came from a small Student Mass here at the local University and the liturgical abuses were abysmal… so my whole ‘Europe is better at the new Mass’ argument just got shattered.

totustuusmaria:

The problem isn’t only American: I’m an American currently living in Austria and I have been travelling around assisting at masses and visiting Churches: all the masses I have been to have been short, vertus populum, none of them have had incense, nobody ever knees (for the most part), there have been very few/none/female altar servers, they have usually opted out of the third reading, oftentimes they substituted other music for the mass parts, and they usually didn’t have either an opening or closing song, or if they did nobody sang it and it was just a mumbling. …]

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

totustuusmaria:

The problem isn’t only American: I’m an American currently living in Austria and I have been travelling around assisting at masses and visiting Churches: all the masses I have been to have been short, vertus populum, none of them have had incense, nobody ever knees (for the most part), there have been very few/none/female altar servers, they have usually opted out of the third reading, oftentimes they substituted other music for the mass parts, and they usually didn’t have either an opening or closing song, or if they did nobody sang it and it was just a mumbling.

I actually can’t wait to get back to the United States where the mass is generally celebrated more reverently.

It is tragic.

My experience of the churches in Innsbruck (during my academic year there I attended the cathedral, a Servitan church, a Jesuit church, and two local parishes, as well as a few Masses at a Marian shrine in rural Tirol) is that they express a strange blend of traditionalism and abuse.

The cathedral and the servitans were still heavy on incense and chant, with the cathedral priests still wearing Roman chasubles (the fiddle-back style) and chanting the Gospel. It was the local parishes (as well as the Jesuits, go figure) that tinkered around so much with the Mass parts, often omitting them entirely. There often seemed to be confusion as to when exactly one should kneel or stand. Still, with all the abuses, the Masses seemed more “traditionally” reverent than in the US (where somehow reverence seems to get confused with informality). Sadly, I think the Austrians are more committed to “how things are done,” as they’re a traditional sort of culture, even though the belief beneath the practice is quickly eroding. But that’s beside the point.

I would have to say that I’d take a cathedral or Servitan NO over an American NO anyday, but I’ll stick with the States if I can only go to “regular” parishes.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I’m also from the Covington diocese. “Wade in the Water” was very popular in my old parish, it was sung at every baptism. You wouldn’t happen to live in Union?

St. Tim’s?

opted out of the third reading

In the Tridentine, there were only two readings, so, actually, this is more traditional.

 

[Lorrie]

This is so wonderful Servus! My mom and I have been discussing going to a parish just North of here that offers a high Mass, I’ve never been to one so I look forward to it immensely.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

If you only take one word of my advice, take the following: Go.

 

[NKY_Catholic]

Servus Pio XII:

St. Tim’s?

My family attended St. Tim’s for about 3 year until the start of this school year when we changed to Mary, Queen of Heaven.

 

[Uriel]

I sure do miss the Latin Mass.

 

[VociMike]

Dr. Bombay:

This is very true. But…what’s the point then?

I mean, what’s the point of celebrating the new Mass in this manner? Doesn’t that kind of negate the whole purpose of the “reform” (or “renewal” if you prefer)?

I suppose the argument is that what we’ve ended up with went a lot further than the intended reform/renewal, and the N.O. Mass I speak of steps back from those “secondary” reforms (or mistakes, if you like).

Read Fr. Fessio’s The Mass of Vatican II for his thoughts.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

My family attended St. Tim’s for about 3 year until the start of this school year when we changed to Mary, Queen of Heaven.

You are direct next to my school! Absolutely unbelievable! Do you attend?

 

[NKY_Catholic]

Servus Pio XII:

You are direct next to my school! Absolutely unbelievable! Do you attend?

Yes, we attend MQH every week. My daughter attends MQH grade school.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I’m stuck at St. Tim’s, though, if I had my choice, I would go to the Cathedral.

Though, what I do not get…the Cathedral has an organ, yet ANAWIM carts in a piano to do the music for the Sunday Evening Mass. Why??