Santa Claus is blasphemous

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pnewton said:
Santa Clause is not mentioned there, only lying. If Santa Claus entails lying, it would apply. However, that involves assuming the point you are trying to prove, known as begging the question, or circular logic.
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It isn’t begging the question, it’s a tautology. Telling children Santa Claus is real is false. Unless the person telling them is somehow unaware of the falsity, then its a lie. A lie is a lie.
 
stanczyk said:
It isn’t begging the question, it’s a tautology. Telling children Santa Claus is real is false. Unless the person telling them is somehow unaware of the falsity, then its a lie. A lie is a lie. QED.
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So this is your opinion and you are free to act in accord to your conscience. I do not agree and act in accord to mine. FYI, again, the Catholic Church is not ignorant of Santa Claus and has never applied this logic to call Santa sinful. Thus, as you say QED, it remains your opinion.
 
stanczyk said:
It isn’t begging the question, it’s a tautology. Telling children Santa Claus is real is false. Unless the person telling them is somehow unaware of the falsity, then its a lie. A lie is a lie.
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Santa is very real. He has visited our house every Christmas for 20 years. He is coming this Christmas too!

Santa is not a lie.
 
pnewton said:
So this is your opinion and you are free to act in accord to your conscience. I do not agree and act in accord to mine. FYI, again, the Catholic Church is not ignorant of Santa Claus and has never applied this logic to call Santa sinful. Thus, as you say QED, it remains your opinion.
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I don’t see this as a matter of opinion. What is and is not a lie is a matter of definition. The CCC is very clear:
2483:
Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
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Whether or a not a particular lie is sinful, and the extent to which it is sinful, is not for me to judge. However, whether or not a particular behavior is a lie is question of definition, not opinion. So, again, QED.

God bless you on this wonderful Christmas.
 
Speedypizza said:
I WAS LOOKING FOR THE MAGIC THAT WAS NEVER IN MY OWN CHILDHOOD!!!

Pax :signofcross:
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you were looking for “magic” ? that is what led you to the occult. Not the deprivation of santa claus.
While the OP is a bit strong in his wording, I have to agree. It IS a lie! and the holiday SHOULD BE ABOUT JESUS. It is already secular enough the way it is.
 
stanczyk said:
I don’t see this as a matter of opinion.
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Of course you don’t, which is why I have my signature.

Like I said, the Catholic Church has never followed the moral teaching on honesty to your conclusion.
 
pnewton said:
Of course you don’t, which is why I have my signature.
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We’ve had this conversation before. Your signature is not apt. All personal conclusions on matters of fact are, in essence, opinions. Your signature quote is overly simplistic and trivial.
pnewton said:
Like I said, the Catholic Church has never followed the moral teaching on honesty to your conclusion.
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You are obviously imputed a straw man to me, as I make no conclusions. I merely cite the catechismal definition of a lie. It is clear that a lie is a lie, no matter the substance. A lie is a lie if it meet the definition in the catechism; this much is tautological. There is no exception in the Catechism regarding lies about Santa Claus, so far as I’m aware.
 
Until I see something Catholic that mentions your conclusion, I will hold your opinion to be stancjyk, not Catholic. But feel free to continue and beg the question if you have no **Catholic **document condemning the practice of Santa Claus as being a lie.

The Catechism says:

“A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.”

I say that the intent of parents who pretend to be Santa Claus is not to deceive their children, but to bless them. The motivation is love and entertainment. According to this definition, good intent negates it being a lie.

FYI - I have never needed to directly state a falsehooe to maintain the Santa illusion. I have only had the conversation of whether Santa is real come up once and I did not need to lie.
 
pnewton said:
Until I see something Catholic that mentions your conclusion, I will hold your opinion to be stancjyk, not Catholic. But feel free to continue and beg the question if you have no **Catholic **document condemning the practice of Santa Claus as being a lie.
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You must have missed the part where I posted the Catechism’s definition of lying. I’ll post it again for your convenience:
CCC 2483:
Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. **To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. **By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
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If one is telling children that Santa Claus is real, in order to lead them to the error of believing that Santa Claus is real, then it is a lie. So, there you have it, something Catholic. Lies are lies.
 
stanczyk said:
You must have missed the part where I posted the Catechism’s definition of lying. I’ll post it again for your convenience:
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CCC# 2483 is not the definition of lying. It is a result (hence the preposition “to”) of something already determined to be a lie. 2483 does not mention Santa, which is what I asked, so we can separate Catholic teaching from your opinion.
 
pnewton said:
CCC# 2483 is not the definition of lying. It is a result (hence the preposition “to”) of something already determined to be a lie.

So how is that search for som Catholic statement coming?
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This is the definition of “to lie” according to the CCC: To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error.

Therefore “lying” is “speaking or acting against the truth in order to lead someone into error.”

Therefore “speaking or acting against the truth in order to lead someone into error” is a lie.

Look, you’re clearly upset at the suggestion that something you view as harmless fun could be problematic from a religious perspective, so you’re doing mental gymnastics to rationalize it. But the truth of the matter is plain as day. Telling kids that Santa Claus is real is a lie. It might be a harmless lie, or a fun lie, but it’s a lie. The CCC even gives us a definition of what a “lie” is so that we can be sure.

Now, I don’t see any exceptions in the CCC for harmless and fun lies, do you?
 
pnewton said:
CCC# 2483 is not the definition of lying. It is a result **(hence the preposition “to”) **of something already determined to be a lie.
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By the way, I would be remiss if I did not correct you here. “To” is not a preposition in this sentence. “To lie” is the infinitive of the verb “lying.”
 
stanczyk said:
Look, you’re clearly upset at the suggestion that something you view as harmless fun could be problematic from a religious perspective, so you’re doing mental gymnastics to rationalize it
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No need for rash judgement. I am not trying to rationalize it, because I do not agree with you. There is nothing to rationalize. Yes, it is always irksome when someone with no insight to a family is presumptious enough to try and advise on parenting. This is especially true when such advice goes beyond the teaching of the Catholic Church, or as you see it, an application of a teaching of the Catholic Church that the Church herself does not apply to this situation.
 
pnewton said:
Until I see something Catholic that mentions your conclusion, I will hold your opinion to be stancjyk, not Catholic. But feel free to continue and beg the question if you have no **Catholic **document condemning the practice of Santa Claus as being a lie.

The Catechism says:

“A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.”

I say that the intent of parents who pretend to be Santa Claus is not to deceive their children, but to bless them. The motivation is love and entertainment. According to this definition, good intent negates it being a lie.

FYI - I have never needed to directly state a falsehooe to maintain the Santa illusion. I have only had the conversation of whether Santa is real come up once and I did not need to lie.
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Well look, you said it yourself. But you draw the wrong conclusion. The motivation of love or entertainment does not make it any less of a lie. Read again what you just wrote. There are no exceptions for lies “out of love.” The intention of deceiving is the only requirement. Good intent simply does not negate the fact that a lie is a lie.
 
pnewton said:
No need for rash judgement. I am not trying to rationalize it, because I do not agree with you. There is nothing to rationalize. Yes, it is always irksome when someone with no insight to a family is presumptious enough to try and advise on parenting. This is especially true when such advice goes beyond the teaching of the Catholic Church, or as you see it, an application of a teaching of the Catholic Church that the Church herself does not apply to this situation.
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I don’t see what this has to do with parenting. If a parent wants to lie to their children, it’s none of my business, really.

But a lie is a lie. If you are telling children (or adults for that matter) that Santa Claus is real, with the intent to make the person you are telling believe it, then it is a lie (unless you honestly think Santa Claus does exist).
 
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