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Calgar
Guest
Not to us.
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tafan
Guest
Sorry for the late response, I have been busy. It is an interesting debate. I am certainly not trying to make it a losing cause for you; but at the same time feel like I have to defend myself against the accusation of lying to my kids and or of being “more concerned with maintaining their traditions than they are in maintaining a relationship with Truth”. Ok, that may sound harsh, I am sure you are not really trying to accuse me strongly of these things, just tying to enlighten me
I would respond with, its not a lie. I think my reference to Chesterton was spot on. There are lots of truth in fairy tales. And maybe Santa is one of the very best fairy tales we can tell our kids. Tell it to them for the truths contained (eg someone willing to give, give, give, all for the spirit of Christmas and to celebrate Christ’s birthday; the existence of the supernatural in our world, etc). Let the person hearing the story figure out the allegorical truths versus the literal truths. This way, they do not immediately start questioning the allegorical truths which can be so important.
“Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten”
A “non-fairy tale” example:
You know, it is commonly accepted today that the book of Genesis is not a literal history of the creation of the world. But you would never know this just by reading Genesis. When Moses wrote the book, he did not bother to point out the literal truths vs the allegorical truths. Was he lying to us? I think not. Side note: even the trational attribution of Moses being the author of the Pentatuach is a tradtion maintained by the Jewish faith and the Church for a long, long time; it is disputed today and I don’t think the Church takes a firm stance either way. Does that mean the Church has been lying to us in letting Catholics believe in his authorship for so long, when the Church did not know for sure? Or the authorship of the Gospels, same thing. If they were not authored by the Mathew, Mark, Luke, or John; someone put their name on the book at sometime in the very early Church. Was this a lie?
Back to fairy tales (please note I am not saying the books of the bible are fairy tales):
Some fairy tales are more than true, and it is fine to let people figure out the literal deficiencies at their own pace. Maybe even more than fine, it is good. As Tolkein said on fairy tales : “It was in fairy-stories that I first divined the potency of the words, and the wonder of things, such as stone, and wood, and iron; tree and grass; house and fire; bread and wine.”
Wonder and awe at Christmas is so important. If belief in Santa helps instill that wonder and awe in toddlers, it might last a life time.
edited to add:
back to my bible analogy and away from fairy tales: Question: when you taught your kids the creation story, did you find it important to point out what is literal history and what is not? Not exactly the same, I know, because we do not know the exact answers with the Book of Genesis, and we do with Santa. But, nevertheless, there are some historical truths in Genisis we do know for a fact: did you point these out and thus call into question everything else?
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tafan
Guest
A seperate post, because it is a seperate argument:
DaveBj, how do you know there is not a Santa Claus? There could be. Lots of elements of the supernatural we don’t know about; as Chesterton said it is the atheist who is limited in his beliefs, not the orthodox believer. The atheist can only believe in what he has physical evidence of;while we can believe in all sorts of things. Well, the Church certainly does not teach there is no Santa Claus. And I have no concrete evidence he does not exist, just evidence he knows I will take care of my kids on Christmas morning, so he can focus on others.
I will give you some help:
Perhaps a good answer to my question would be Fr Brown’s comment: “believing in ghosts is one thing, but believing in a ghost is quite another”.
DaveBj, how do you know there is not a Santa Claus? There could be. Lots of elements of the supernatural we don’t know about; as Chesterton said it is the atheist who is limited in his beliefs, not the orthodox believer. The atheist can only believe in what he has physical evidence of;while we can believe in all sorts of things. Well, the Church certainly does not teach there is no Santa Claus. And I have no concrete evidence he does not exist, just evidence he knows I will take care of my kids on Christmas morning, so he can focus on others.
I will give you some help:
Perhaps a good answer to my question would be Fr Brown’s comment: “believing in ghosts is one thing, but believing in a ghost is quite another”.
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tafan
Guest
Gotta comment on the beer for Santa posts. When I was a kid, one Christmas Eve my mom had my Dad’s friend come to our house dressed up as Santa. Dad offered him a beer, I knew really quick that guy was probably not santa. Mom was not happy with Dad.
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tafan
Guest
Sorry for the late response, I have been busy. It is an interesting debate. I am certainly not trying to make it a losing cause for you; but at the same time feel like I have to defend myself against the accusation of lying to my kids and or of being “more concerned with maintaining their traditions than they are in maintaining a relationship with Truth”. Ok, that may sound harsh, I am sure you are not really trying to accuse me strongly of these things, just tying to enlighten me
I would respond with, its not a lie. I think my reference to Chesterton was spot on. There are lots of truth in fairy tales. And maybe Santa is one of the very best fairy tales we can tell our kids. Tell it to them for the truths contained (eg someone willing to give, give, give, all for the spirit of Christmas and to celebrate Christ’s birthday; the existence of the supernatural in our world, etc). Let the person hearing the story figure out the allegorical truths versus the literal truths. This way, they do not immediately start questioning the allegorical truths which can be so important.
“Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten”
A “non-fairy tale” example:
It is commonly accepted today that the book of Genesis is not a literal history of the creation of the world. But you would never know this just by reading Genesis. When Moses wrote the book, he did not bother to point out the literal truths vs the allegorical truths. Was he lying to us? I think not. Side note: even the trational attribution of Moses being the author of the Pentatuach is a tradtion maintained by the Jewish faith and the Church for a long, long time; it is disputed today and I don’t think the Church takes a firm stance either way. Does that mean the Church has been lying to us in letting Catholics believe in his authorship for so long, when the Church did not know for sure? Or the authorship of the Gospels, same thing. If they were not authored by the Mathew, Mark, Luke, or John; someone put their name on the book at sometime in the very early Church. Was this a lie?
Back to fairy tales (please note I am not saying the books of the bible are fairy tales):
Some fairy tales are more than true, and it is fine to let people figure out the literal deficiencies at their own pace. Maybe even more than fine, it is good. As Tolkein said on fairy tales : “It was in fairy-stories that I first divined the potency of the words, and the wonder of things, such as stone, and wood, and iron; tree and grass; house and fire; bread and wine.”
Wonder and awe at Christmas is so important. If belief in Santa helps instill that wonder and awe in toddlers, it might last a life time.
edited to add:
back to my bible analogy and away from fairy tales: Question: when you taught your kids the creation story, did you find it important to point out what is literal history and what is not? Not exactly the same, I know, because we do not know the exact answers with the Book of Genesis, and we do with Santa. But, nevertheless, there are some historical truths in Genisis we do know for a fact: did you point these out and thus call into question everything else?
mathematoons
New member
I believed in Santa Claus as a kid, and played along for a couple of years after I figured out the truth, but then, I wasn’t raised Catholic.
I don’t think Catholic children should be taught such things. We tell our kids about God and about Santa Claus. Then we tell them the fat guy in the red suit isn’t real. They’re smart enough to reason that maybe God isn’t real either.
I don’t think Catholic children should be taught such things. We tell our kids about God and about Santa Claus. Then we tell them the fat guy in the red suit isn’t real. They’re smart enough to reason that maybe God isn’t real either.
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ZhaneAugustine
Guest
No one is trying to make this a losing point for you, nor are we trying to cling to tradition. It is admirable to hold onto the truth. But the Church knows the difference between holding that truth AND forcing it down someone’s face. As proven in this paragraphs.
Now, as you answered my question to the best of your ability, let me answer it. First, because it is SO infentisimal (mispelled that) that to come down on it with a hammer, would do MORE HARM THAN GOOD. Its like demanding excommunication for someone who stole a candy bar.
The story does more GOOD than it does HARM.
catholicexchange.com/2011/12/06/138017/ I’d also like to direct the discusion to this article for all to read
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tafan
Guest
But you are looking at it backwards, as a skeptic. No, Santa teaches us not to be skeptics.
That is one if the points I was trying to make above, by referencing Chesterton’s views on fairy tales. And now zhaneAugustine has given us a wonderful article with a dirt Chesterton quote on the subject, which I will now give:
"“We believed that a certain benevolent person did give us those toys for nothing. And I believe it still. I have merely extended the idea. Then I only wondered who put the toys in the stocking. Now I wonder who put the stockings by the bed, and the bed in the room, and the room in the house, and the house on the planet, and the great planet in the void. Once, I only thanked Santa Claus for a few dollars and crackers. Now, I thank him for stars and street faces, and wine and the great sea…”
You were nit raised as a Catholic, so it may be hard to see the attraction of this logic. I think it is wonderful. By the time kids have figured out Santa, it won’t cause them to doubt God; because they will already accept the reality of the supernatural. Santa helps with that acceptance.
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DaveBj
Guest
I agree 100%. It is a story, and when it is told as a story, it has the potential to do good. When it is told as if it were the truth, and the kids find out later that it wasn’t the truth, there is the potential for much harm.
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tafan
Guest
Sounds like a skeptic talking about the Bible.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Apples and oranges. When you look at our Theology, we don’t even give our God a tangible form. He is a mystery AND he is omnipotent. When you try to grasp the idea, it becomes hard to disbelieve on the same level as Santa.
Santa though has got everything covered: Where he lives. What he does. What he looks like. He’s completely humanized… too humanized. His traits are actually limitations.
The Santa-God comparison may sound convincing at first but it’s really just another anti-intelligent meme concocted by internet atheists.
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runwaymodel
Guest
I was raised Catholic and I can’t fathom not enjoying wonderful childhood memories like believing in Santa Claus. Kids grow up and then you can tell them the truth. I don’t see any harm in letting kids believe in something magical and fun, its not like you’re telling them Jesus doesn’t exist. But that’s just my opinion, I know there are others who might disagree.
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DaveBj
Guest
I suppose there are some skeptics that talk about the Bible in that way, but I was referring to the Santa Claus story. There is a huge difference between divinely inspired Sacred Scripture and a fairy tale.
I trust you were not being so presumpteous as to be puttng words in my mouth (or, more accurately, in my fingers).
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tafan
Guest
I don’t think I have put any words in your mouth. But your arguments fit a skeptic mindset much more than a Catholic, IMO. Repeat same simple mantra over and over; ignoring other’s arguments, not answering questions.
As to the huge difference between divinely inspired Sacred Scripture and fairy tales, I have acknowledge that with my analogies to the bible already.
Heck, I will admit, I am nearly 50, I love Santa Claus; I choose to believe in him. There is lots of evidence to support that belief. I love to pass it on, with all its cool trappings, to my kids. How is that lying?
“Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten”
That doesn’t change the truth!
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DaveBj
Guest
I repeat the same thing over and over BECAUSE IT’S WHAT THE BIBLE AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BOTH TEACH: DON"T LIE!!!
Because that is telling your children a myth and saying it is true. By the same token, I could have told my children the Norse myths about Thor and Odin to make them believe that there actually is a deity named Thor who carries a hammer and rides in a cart pulled by two goats. What’s the difference? Reading and telling the stories as stories is not a problem, but making a real person out of a mythical character, whether his name is Thor or Santa Clause, is telling a lie. And it’s not telling a lie to a stranger; it’s telling a lie to the most vulnerable people on the planet: children.
If you don’t get it, I guess you don’t get it. I’ll admit that my powers of persuasion are not all that great, although for a believing Catholic the quotations from the Bible and the CCC should have been all the persuasion that was necessary. You will “get it” one of these days; I just hope that what it takes to persuade you isn’ your children’s loss of faith at the realization that their parents had been untruthful.
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tafan
Guest
Powers of persuasion are certrainly limited when one only repeats their own points and does not try to address/dispute the arguments made by the other side.
For example, you never explained why you don’t condemn Moses for lying when he wrote the book of Genisis. You don’t address any of Chesterton’s thoughts on fairy tales and Santa Claus. You did not address the poster who went through each of the paragraphs in the catechism and argued they did not apply. All of our arguments are not perfect, I admit. But if you won’t even address them, your powers of persuation is limited by a self-inflicted wound.
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Calgar
Guest
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triumphguy
Guest
Of course they are, because it is in the traditions that the truth lies.
When I read a story to my children should I star out by telling them all that it is a lie?
The fairy stories. folk tales and the best children’s books contain deep truths about life - even though they are all made up!
I have read Wind in the Willows, C S Lewis, the Hobbit and now am 1/3 of the way reading Lord of the Rings to my kids. the magic of the books is real, and the magic of Christmas is real, and the magic of Santa is real too. BTW the magic of reading to my kids is real to me, and one which I am blessed to be able to do.)
Kids need to learn about the magical, and the wonderment of life. There’s a strong and growing philosophy (logical positivism and atheism) out there that is killing all that is wonderful in this world, and which threatens to take the childlike away from all of us.
Peter Rabbit’s daddy did end up in a pie, and let that be a lesson for all of us!
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ZhaneAugustine
Guest
ONLY if one of two things happen. A. The Child becomes depressed and moody, and refuses to have anything to do with family functions, etc because of learning that Santa doesn’t come to his or her house. Or worse.
And I’ve never heard or READ in the news where a kid acted like this
and B if the child decides if Santa isn’t real, what if God isn’t real?
To combat this, the parents should present what the Church teaches, the Bible, the Church Fathers, as early an age as they can, so that the Child can see where the Santa ideal has its hold in the Truth, and therefore does not leave.
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