Santorum rethinks death penalty stance

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I’m not real surprised actually. We keep speaking about the ‘culture of death’ with abortion, and now cases like Terri Schiavo. It really does make sense to just stop and re-think the death penalty.

I’m not sure I’m totally ready to take the plunge to “no death penalty” But I certainly would be open to putting some strict standards on when it’s applied. I mean if you look at cases like McVeigh I still have a hard time being convinced that the death penalty wasn’t a just penalty. But with cases like Peterson, maybe life in prison would be quite a punishment for a young guy like him.
 
I struggle with this issue constantly. I know it is not up to us to pass final judgement on someone but geez…McVeigh? Or how about serial killers, these folks generally cannot be rehabilitated, so what, do we pay for them to have 3 hots and a cot for life? I know I am wrong to feel this way so I do the only thing I can do…PRAY that God teaches me to have more compassion and mercy for my fellow man. I guess I also need to accept my humanity more. As for Santorum…he is such an awesome guy. I think he would make a great president but I doubt he would run because he is such a family man. He is a wonderful example of a Catholic husband and father. I think that a mans moral character is so important in public office.
 
**2261 **Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: "Do not slay the innocent and the righteous."61 The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

(I believe this one defends Terri Perfectly)

**2267 **Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, nonlethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.NT

The church doesn’t have a ‘zero tolerence’ for the death penalty, saying that if there is no other way to keep the public safe it may be used, but it does say that those are rare cases. I’m curious as to what modern cases the church would have approved of.
 
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BlestOne:
I struggle with this issue constantly. I know it is not up to us to pass final judgement on someone but geez…McVeigh? Or how about serial killers, these folks generally cannot be rehabilitated, so what, do we pay for them to have 3 hots and a cot for life? I know I am wrong to feel this way so I do the only thing I can do…PRAY that God teaches me to have more compassion and mercy for my fellow man. I guess I also need to accept my humanity more. As for Santorum…he is such an awesome guy. I think he would make a great president but I doubt he would run because he is such a family man. He is a wonderful example of a Catholic husband and father. I think that a mans moral character is so important in public office.
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It’s easy to love those that love you. Christ calls us to love those that hate you.

Go Ricky!
 
The United States Conference of Catholic bishops has a Catholic Campaign to End the use of the Death Penalty website at usccb.org/sdwp/national/deathpenalty/index.shtml. it has many good things on it including these words of the Holy Father
The new evangelization calls for followers of Christ who are unconditionally pro-life: who will proclaim, celebrate and serve the Gospel of life in every situation. A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary. (Pope John Paul II, St. Louis, MO, January 1999) Punishment cannot be reduced to mere retribution, much less take the form of social retaliation or a sort of institutional vengeance. Punishment and imprisonment have meaning if they serve the rehabilitation of the individual by offering those who have made a mistake an opportunity to reflect and to change their lives in order to be fully reintegrated into society. (Pope John Paul II, Jubilee Homily to Prisoners, Rome, July 2002)
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And also this from Evangelium Vitae
  1. … Moreover, "legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the state."44 Unfortunately, it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason.45
  2. This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God’s plan for man and society. The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is "to redress the disorder caused by the offense."46 Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfills the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people’s safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behavior and be rehabilitated.47
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It is clear that for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: In other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare if not practically nonexistent.
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In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: “If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.”
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Praise God! God is working in the conscience of a legislator–there’s something you don’t see everyday! The death penalty has outlived its usefulness, IMO.
 
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Maranatha:
It’s easy to love those that love you. Christ calls us to love those that hate you.

Go Ricky!
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Yes you are soooo right Maranatha!!! I have been working very hard this lent to be charitable to those I morally disagree with. I have found that I can almost always identify precursary causes for their actions and opinions. Because of this I can show sympathy and mercy to those people. Kinda like love the man, hate the sin. My biggest struggle has been with a co-worker that had an affair with a friends husband, got pregnant, had an abortion and made a play for my fiance. I hated all of those actions but I can feel sympathetic to the fact that she is a very insecure woman that needs to prove her worth through sex/ and or men. I pray for her that she finds her own self worth before she destroys her life and anybody elses. We actually discussed weight loss and impending marriages today. Wow what a change God has made in me.
 
The pope and the bishops are dead wrong on this one. Show me one shred of evidence that they have presented to support their position.
 
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BlestOne:
I struggle with this issue constantly. I know it is not up to us to pass final judgement on someone but geez…McVeigh?
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You do know that McVeigh most likely went straight to heaven.

He had a Sacramental Confession and Absolution shortly before his death, and received Last Rites, which contains an Apostolic Blessing (a Plenary Indulgence - remitting all Purgation).
 
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Brendan:
You do know that McVeigh most likely went straight to heaven.

He had a Sacramental Confession and Absolution shortly before his death, and received Last Rites, which contains an Apostolic Blessing (a Plenary Indulgence - remitting all Purgation).
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Which just shows there’s no athiests in foxholes, cancer wards or death row.
 
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Brendan:
You do know that McVeigh most likely went straight to heaven.

He had a Sacramental Confession and Absolution shortly before his death, and received Last Rites, which contains an Apostolic Blessing (a Plenary Indulgence - remitting all Purgation).
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For what it’s worth…

I believe this is the exact reason why the death penalty should not be compared in pro life terms to abortion, as is often done. The Church does not even have a chance to bring the aborted soul to Christ. As a matter of fact, the Church has not even been able to articulate exactly what happens to those souls, other than to say “…we have hope and trust that God takes care of them…”

Another note on the above: Assuming McVeigh made a good confession, he most likely went to purgatory and may sit there for a long time. I’m guessing he probably has some residual punishment due for the nature of his actions. We need to pray for his soul.

Peace.
 
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theTaxCollector:
Assuming McVeigh made a good confession, he most likely went to purgatory and may sit there for a long time.
Peace.
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Doubtful, there were two opportunities for a Plenary Indulgence.

The first was acceptance of just punishment, which remits the effects of the temporal effects of sin.

The second, was the Apostolic Blessing received in Last Rites.

Both of these remit all the effects of sin, negating any need for Purgatory. So if either or both of these was fruitful, Tim went straight to Heaven.
 
I have also recently been struggling with the death penalty. Senator Santorum make me prod to be a Catholic, Republican, and a Pennsylvanian…in that order.
 
I still don’t see any evidence presented by anybody that warrants ending capital punishment. Neither the pope, the bishops, nor anybody else has such evidence, so why is any Catholic getting weak knee over it?
 
jim orr:
I still don’t see any evidence presented by anybody that warrants ending capital punishment. Neither the pope, the bishops, nor anybody else has such evidence, so why is any Catholic getting weak knee over it?
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What ‘evidence’ do you want? The Bishop of Rome has authority to teach on this and is not subject to your arbitrary burden/standard. Here’s what the Pope said on it:

*“Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform.” *

See, the Pope is looking at it from an ETERNAL perspective. That is, he teaches that in order to break the cycle of violence in our world, the first entity that must stop is the state.

Also, he teaches that the dignity of human life is absolute. And even though a person does not respect the dignity of another’s life by murdering them, this does not cause the first party to lose their intrinsic dignity as God’s creation.

Finally, he points to the example of Jesus. Rather than condemn the woman caught in adultery to stoning, he said he did not condemn her to die. Rather than demand vengeance, Jesus forgave at every turn.

Do we mean what we say when we claim to follow Christ or are we just messing around? Jesus sought justice but NEVER did capital punishment play a part in justice for Him.
Say to them: As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live.
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Ezekiel 33:11

The Catechism still maintains that Capital Punishment is not objectively immoral and that it is possible that it is warranted, in general terms. However, in our world, the technology and safeguards exist to sufficiently protect society without it.
 
jim orr:
I still don’t see any evidence presented by anybody that warrants ending capital punishment. Neither the pope, the bishops, nor anybody else has such evidence, so why is any Catholic getting weak knee over it?
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I agree. The thing that bothers me is that the pope and bishops are completely sidestepping the issue of justice for the victims, in their headlong push to end the death penalty.

The state cannot send people to hell for committing heinous crimes, of course, and we wouldn’t want the state to have such power, but it does and should have the right to exact justice for its citizens that have been victimized by those who commit heinous crimes. That is the business of the state, not of the Church.
 
I agree. The thing that bothers me is that the pope and bishops are completely sidestepping the issue of justice for the victims, in their headlong push to end the death penalty.
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I would say the burden of proof is on you to show that they care nothing about justice. The Catechism defines justice as:
Justice toward men disposes one to respect the rights of each and to establish in human relationships the harmony that promotes equity with regard to persons and to the common good.
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What is the FIRST and ‘inalienable’ right given every person? It’s LIFE. And so, by this definition, ‘justice’ means respecting a person’s life first and foremost. The Church doesn’t say that a human loses this right when he/she commits a capital crime and so neither can we.

The Church does not propose that one who commits a capital crime get off scot free. This is a fallacy. The Church has always said that crimes against justice (which murder certainly is) entails the duty of reparation. It merely suggests that murdering the criminal is not reparation but rather another unjust action.

Your separation of Church and State argument doesn’t hold water. If it did, then the Church would have no business saying that the Nazis or the Communists were objectively immoral in their genocide. What the Church says is that ANY law which opposes the Moral Law has no authority and must not be followed. Execution of criminals, by virtue of the definition of justice, is counter to Moral Law and, therefore is unjust in nearly every case.

Personal feelings, as Jesus said, must take a backseat to the authority of His Church. And while no infallible declaration has been made on this, I believe we have sufficient ‘evidence’ on which way the Church expects us to go.
 
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GoodSamaritan:
"JPII:
*“Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform.” *
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See, the Pope is looking at it from an ETERNAL perspective. That is, he teaches that in order to break the cycle of violence in our world, the first entity that must stop is the state.
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I don’t see anyone in the US denying the criminals the chance to reform.

Read the above about Timothy McVeigh. He certainly wasn’t denied the chance to reform.

If anything , his impending death gave him a much better chance at Eternal Life than life in prison. McVeigh took it and is now in heaven.
 
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GoodSamaritan:
I would say the burden of proof is on you to show that they care nothing about justice.

I didn’t say that. I said in their statements about the death penalty they have sidestepped the issue of justice as it pertains to the victims and the right of the state to exact justice for its citizens.

And it isn’t I who is getting all personal about this issue here. Your comparing my correct position on this issue with the Nazis is just plain ridiculous, which is all I need to say about that.
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