Sat (Dec 12) Mass readings (Mary was saved before conception?)

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December 12, 2009

Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe Lectionary: 690

Reading 1
Zec 2:14-17 or Rv 11:19a; 12:1-6a, 10ab

Sing and rejoice, O daughter Zion!
See, I am coming to dwell among you, says the LORD.
Many nations shall join themselves to the LORD on that day,
and they shall be his people,
and he will dwell among you,

and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
The LORD will possess Judah as his portion in the holy land,
and he will again choose Jerusalem.
Silence, all mankind, in the presence of the LORD!
For he stirs forth from his holy dwelling.

or

God’s temple in Heaven was opened,
and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple
.

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet,
and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in the sky;
it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns,
and on its heads were seven diadems.
Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky
and hurled them down to the earth.
Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth,
to devour her child when she gave birth.
She gave birth to a son, a male child,
destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.

Her child was caught up to God and his throne.
The woman herself fled into the desert
where she had a place prepared by God.

Then I heard a loud voice in Heaven say:
“Now have salvation and power come,
and the Kingdom of our God
and the authority of his Anointed.”

Responsorial Psalm
Judith 13:18bcde, 19


R. (15:9d) You are the highest honor of our race.
Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God,
above all the women on earth;
and blessed be the LORD God,
the creator of heaven and earth.
R. You are the highest honor of our race.
Your deed of hope will never be forgotten
by those who tell of the might of God.
R. You are the highest honor of our race.

Gospel
Lk 1:26-38 or Lk 1:39-47


The angel Gabriel was sent from God
to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,
to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph,
of the house of David,
and the virgin’s name was Mary
.
And coming to her, he said,
“Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.”
But she was greatly troubled at what was said
and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.
Then the angel said to her,
“Do not be afraid, Mary,
for you have found favor with God.
Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son,
and you shall name him Jesus.
He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High,
and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever,
and of his Kingdom there will be no end.”
But Mary said to the angel,
***“How can this be,
since I have no relations with a man?”***And the angel said to her in reply,
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
Therefore the child to be born
will be called holy, the Son of God.
And behold, Elizabeth, your relative,
has also conceived a son in her old age,
and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
for nothing will be impossible for God.”
Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord.
May it be done to me according to your word.”
Then the angel departed from her.

or

Mary set out
and traveled to the hill country in haste
to a town of Judah,
where she entered the house of Zechariah
and greeted Elizabeth.
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting,
the infant leaped in her womb,
and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit,
cried out in a loud voice and said,
“Most blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
And how does this happen to me,
that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears,
the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
Blessed are you who believed
that what was spoken to you by the Lord
would be fulfilled.”

And Mary said:

“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my savior.”

.

*Mary rejoices in God her savior…

The Church teaches that Mary was saved from original sin before conception (Immaculate Conception). God can do these kinds of things… and again, we can trust the original Church to teach us truth (I say this for Protestants’ sake). it sounds rather “far-fetched” but then all supernatural things seem to be that… *
 
Interesting. The Catholic Mass contains more scripture than most Protestant services, yet we are seen as non-biblical.
 
December 12, 2009

Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe Lectionary: 690

Reading 1
Zec 2:14-17 or Rv 11:19a; 12:1-6a, 10ab

Sing and rejoice, O daughter Zion!
See, I am coming to dwell among you, says the LORD.
Many nations shall join themselves to the LORD on that day,
and they shall be his people,
and he will dwell among you,

and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
The LORD will possess Judah as his portion in the holy land,
and he will again choose Jerusalem.
Silence, all mankind, in the presence of the LORD!
For he stirs forth from his holy dwelling.

or

God’s temple in Heaven was opened,
and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple
.

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet,
and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in the sky;
it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns,
and on its heads were seven diadems.
Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky
and hurled them down to the earth.
Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth,
to devour her child when she gave birth.
She gave birth to a son, a male child,
destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.

Her child was caught up to God and his throne.
The woman herself fled into the desert
where she had a place prepared by God.

Then I heard a loud voice in Heaven say:
“Now have salvation and power come,
and the Kingdom of our God
and the authority of his Anointed.”

Responsorial Psalm
Judith 13:18bcde, 19


R. (15:9d) You are the highest honor of our race.
Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God,
above all the women on earth;
and blessed be the LORD God,
the creator of heaven and earth.
R. You are the highest honor of our race.
Your deed of hope will never be forgotten
by those who tell of the might of God.
R. You are the highest honor of our race.

Gospel
Lk 1:26-38 or Lk 1:39-47


The angel Gabriel was sent from God
to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,
to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph,
of the house of David,
and the virgin’s name was Mary
.
And coming to her, he said,
“Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.”
But she was greatly troubled at what was said
and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.
Then the angel said to her,
“Do not be afraid, Mary,
for you have found favor with God.
Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son,
and you shall name him Jesus.
He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High,
and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever,
and of his Kingdom there will be no end.”
But Mary said to the angel,
***“How can this be,
since I have no relations with a man?”***And the angel said to her in reply,
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
Therefore the child to be born
will be called holy, the Son of God.
And behold, Elizabeth, your relative,
has also conceived a son in her old age,
and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
for nothing will be impossible for God.”
Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord.
May it be done to me according to your word.”
Then the angel departed from her.

or

Mary set out
and traveled to the hill country in haste
to a town of Judah,
where she entered the house of Zechariah
and greeted Elizabeth.
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting,
the infant leaped in her womb,
and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit,
cried out in a loud voice and said,
“Most blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
And how does this happen to me,
that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears,
the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
Blessed are you who believed
that what was spoken to you by the Lord
would be fulfilled.”

And Mary said:

“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my savior.”

.

*Mary rejoices in God her savior…

The Church teaches that Mary was saved from original sin before conception (Immaculate Conception). God can do these kinds of things… and again, we can trust the original Church to teach us truth (I say this for Protestants’ sake). it sounds rather “far-fetched” but then all supernatural things seem to be that*…
Maybe, I’m dense, but I honestly cannot see how anyone could see that the holy Virgin was saved before her conception (or even at her conception). This seems to be a bad case of eisegesis. 😦

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Maybe, I’m dense, but I honestly cannot see how anyone could see that the holy Virgin was saved before her conception (or even at her conception). This seems to be a bad case of eisegesis. 😦

In Christ,
Andrew
I agree. The verses could hardly be a stand alone justifying the Immaculate Conception. They can be supporting verses but the idea of the Immaculate Conception is not based solely on them but a proclamation of the Church.
 
Mary was made sinless by God…because His son could not be formed in a womb of sin.

People don’t realize it, but they sense she some how did something to be like she is…when she didn’t …she was created that way…she has a different constitution than us…she has no receptacle for sin…

So we can embrace her and know she will embrace us with no fear of absorbing anything else from us…strange…to say…but she loves us and is our greatest advocate…the New Eve…if only more American women knew the power and presence of Mary…greater than all the saints…her knowledge of herself recognizing she did nothing, did not earn anything to be able to bear the Christ Child.
 
Maybe, I’m dense, but I honestly cannot see how anyone could see that the holy Virgin was saved before her conception (or even at her conception). This seems to be a bad case of eisegesis. 😦

In Christ,
Andrew
Glad to know that I’m not the only one.
 
How can this be???
Wasn’t Jesus the only one who was without sin?
Now Mary is without sin.
This is really streaching it.
 
Interesting. The Catholic Mass contains more scripture than most Protestant services, yet we are seen as non-biblical.
yes… and many CAtholics are not even aware of this. i wasn’t aware of it until i studied the Catholic religion some 13 yrs ago… kinda blew me away… had been around protestnats for so long… actually believed that for awhile… that they knew the Bible better than most Catholics, etc…

the only thing i don’t like about the Cathlic Church is it doesn’t teach its members the faith very well… didn’t seem to teach me much of anything…😦
 
Maybe, I’m dense, but I honestly cannot see how anyone could see that the holy Virgin was saved before her conception (or even at her conception). This seems to be a bad case of eisegesis. 😦

In Christ,
Andrew
do you mean exegesis??? :confused:

i thought you were becoming Catholic???

hmmmm… :confused:
 
Mary was made sinless by God…because His son could not be formed in a womb of sin.

People don’t realize it, but they sense she some how did something to be like she is…when she didn’t …she was created that way…she has a different constitution than us…she has no receptacle for sin…

So we can embrace her and know she will embrace us with no fear of absorbing anything else from us…strange…to say…but she loves us and is our greatest advocate…the New Eve…if only more American women knew the power and presence of Mary…greater than all the saints…her knowledge of herself recognizing she did nothing, did not earn anything to be able to bear the Christ Child.
i think she is closer to God than anyone but Jesus Christ…

because she was made by God without sin…

sin separates us from HIm… but she didn’t have any sin… so you are right, we need to call on her more often…
 
Maybe, I’m dense, but I honestly cannot see how anyone could see that the holy Virgin was saved before her conception (or even at her conception). This seems to be a bad case of eisegesis. 😦

In Christ,
Andrew
Glad to know that I’m not the only one.
How can this be???
Wasn’t Jesus the only one who was without sin?
Now Mary is without sin.
This is really streaching it.
Now I bet you will all use the "there are none righteous, no not one” argument. Well, before you do, let me clear it up:
In the book of Luke, there are at least 3 people in the New Testament who are righteous – Simeon (Luke 2), Elizabeth, and Zechariah (Luke 1). The angel Gabriel called Mary “full of grace” before she conceived Jesus in her womb (Luke 1:28) – that must make her righteous in the eyes of God, to be “full of grace”. And besides, we had all better be righteous, or we won’t make it into heaven (Matthew 5:20).
 
How can this be???
Wasn’t Jesus the only one who was without sin?
Now Mary is without sin.
This is really streaching it.
Well, to the Latin Church’s credit, it has believed this for a few hundred years, with some believing it a little before the Reformation, but not that much sooner.

In the Orthodox Church, we remember her conception, it’s Dec. 9, and celebrate her birth, Sept. 8. We do this so as to show that we believe only God is perfect. When the West changed the celebration of her conception from Dec. 9 to Dec. 8, I do not know.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
God made Adam and Eve without sin also… *
They were the first 2 on earth so it stands to reason they were without sin until they commited the first sin and then all of us were born with sin because of them, except Jesus who is the Son of God.
 
Now I bet you will all use the "there are none righteous, no not one” argument. Well, before you do, let me clear it up:
In the book of Luke, there are at least 3 people in the New Testament who are righteous – Simeon (Luke 2), Elizabeth, and Zechariah (Luke 1). The angel Gabriel called Mary “full of grace” before she conceived Jesus in her womb (Luke 1:28) – that must make her righteous in the eyes of God, to be “full of grace”. And besides, we had all better be righteous, or we won’t make it into heaven (Matthew 5:20).
This does not prove that they were without sin. Just righteous. Now righteous is right or just, right with God. A person is made right only through God in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21, “For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sins. so that we could be made right with God through Christ,”
Malachi 3:18 “Then you will again see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God adn those who do not.”
 
This does not prove that they were without sin. Just righteous. Now righteous is right or just, right with God. A person is made right only through God in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21, “For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sins. so that we could be made right with God through Christ,”
Malachi 3:18 “Then you will again see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God adn those who do not.”
Look at the whole chapter (Romans 3). We are only saved through the redemption of Christ. Mary was granted a singular privilege to be conceived without sin to be the Mother of Our Lord and Savior. God did not have to create her without sin…He did it for a reason however - so that she could be more fully united to Him in her sinlessness.
 
Look at the whole chapter (Romans 3). We are only saved through the redemption of Christ. Mary was granted a singular privilege to be conceived without sin to be the Mother of Our Lord and Savior. God did not have to create her without sin…He did it for a reason however - so that she could be more fully united to Him in her sinlessness.
This show nothing except that all People whether Jews or Gentiles are under the power of sin, Romans 3:9

We are made right in God’s sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. We can all be saved in this same waya, no matter who we are or what we have done.
Romans 3:22

For all have sinned all fall short of God’s glorious standards. Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus who has freed us by taking away our sins. Romans 3:23-24

Show me where it says that Mary was conceived without sin. Show me where it says Mary was granted this singular privilege.
 
Show me where it says that Mary was conceived without sin. Show me where it says Mary was granted this singular privilege.
I told you, the angel Gabriel called Mary “full of grace” before she conceived Jesus in her womb (Luke 1:28). How can you be “full of grace” and still have sin? There is no room for sin.
 
I told you, the angel Gabriel called Mary “full of grace” before she conceived Jesus in her womb (Luke 1:28). How can you be “full of grace” and still have sin? There is no room for sin.
I have 8 versions of Luke 1:28
“Gabriel appeared to her and said, Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you.”
1 Life application study bible say this and 4 of the New living translation Bible say this

“And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured the Lord is with thee blessed art thou among women.”
3 of the King James version Bible say this.

Out of 8 Bibles I didn’t find “full of grace.”

8 out of 8 says “favored woman” or “favoured woman.”
 
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