Sat (Dec 12) Mass readings (Mary was saved before conception?)

[rev_kevin]

There were more than 10 people in a room that Christ commissioned to be His Church. A Church He promised to be with until the consummation of the world. I trust in Christ to have built a Church that even the gates of hell shall not prevail against. Christ taught to observe and do whatsoever those who sat upon the chair of Moses said, but according to their works, do not do. This teaches us the power of God to protect His truth in His house, the Church, even through less than perfect men. (By the way, how did all those people know what the chair of Moses was? It’s not written about anywhere in the Bible? They learned about the chair of Moses through the oral tradition.)

You didn’t say the Bible was the sole authority and you didn’t say it wasn’t the sole authority. That’s why I asked you to share your beliefs. Now, who’s getting touchy about something they can’t exactly explain? You refuse to answer my question directly, referencing private interpretation or sola scriptura, so you leave me no choice but to try and read between the lines and interpret what you believe.

The reason these beliefs were brought up to you, is because not everything Catholics believe is specifically written down, just as everything you believe is not written down. It’s called faith. Even though we have differences in our doctrines, traditions and teachings, we both believe Christ was the only begotten Son of God who came down from heaven, suffered, died and was buried for our salvation. We believe he arose again on the third day and ascended into heaven. We believe he will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end.

You’ve come to a Catholic forum, where you’ve told Catholics they are wrong and it seems to be borderline arrogantly. What do you expect us to do, say oh yes everything you are teaching us is right, even though scriptures tells us to hold the traditions we have learned whether by word or epistle? Those traditions have been passed down since the time of Christ. There were not multi-denominational Churches since the beginning. For centuries, there was only one Church, taught not only by Catholic history, but secular history as well. Protestantism began in the 1500s, by men who rejected Church interpretations passed down through oral tradition for their own interpretation. Now, there are many, many denonminations. Even a ‘non-denomination’ is another denomination with it’s own doctrines, teachings and beliefs, based on someone’s interpretation far removed the era the Church was commissioned. Did Christ fail to be with His truth for 1500 years, or more depending on which Church one belongs too? Many Churches, even non-denominational Churches, began in the 1900s. Did Christ skip many generations of people with His truth?

Catholics have faith in God and God’s ability to keep His truth safe for ALL, all people of all generations and all time, as scriptures tells us it was for.

How many yeaars ago was it about 2000. If something can be changed in a room of 10 people in less the 2 min. wouldn’t it stand to reason that something like that could have happened over a 2000 year period.

Last night I was going through some other threads and this is what I found:
Estesbob {Catholic} said this “I don’t demand that others accept my PERSONAL INTERPRETATION of scripture.” Notice the “my personal” part of his statement If its ok for a Catholic to have their personal interpretation why is it wrong for others to have theirs. Sounds like do as I say not as I do.

The Bible is not the sole authority. Christ is.
The sola scripture is not the sole authority, Christ is.

Yes you are right. Now all the things you mentioned are written down in the Bible.

If disagreeing means saying wrong then guilty. Then you are qguilty of the same thing by saying we are wrong. Be careful when you accuse others of the same thing you are doing. Now by saying we are wrong puts you in the same catigory that you put me in and that is being borderline arrogantly. On the same line what do you expect us to do, say oh yes everything you are telling us is right. See you are doing the same thing to us that you say we do to you. In otherwords what you are saying is we, Catholics, can say it to you but you can’t say it to us. I know where I’m at, it also a non-Catholic site now have you read what this site is meant to be, if not look under “important forum information” then click on the non-Catholic part and read what it says but I’ll save you the trouble, “Explore the history and beliefs of non-Catholics and non-Christian faith, dialogue and adherents.”
Now the true church is Jesus Christ not one single named religion. Do you know how many times I have heard “our church has been around from the time of Jesus and yours has been around for 1500 years.” Getting sick of hearing that, sounds like a broken record.

When someone interperted for the Catholics wasn’t it someone’s personal interpretation on what they want someone to believe is true.

No Christ did not fail nor skip generations. The true church is Christ and that is what we believe so if we believe Christ is the true church we were never left out and were always with him just with no named church because Christ is the church and if you believe in Christ you are in his church. I don’t believe one has to be Catholic to be one with Christ and in his church.

You hit he nail on the head when you said ALL. Christ came for ALL men so they might be saved. He came for me, you, everyone in the world and wants us to be close to him but I don’t recall seeing you can be close to him only if your a Catholic. The way to salvation is through Jesus Christ himself not a named church.

I hope this answeres you questions.

Now with this said can we get back to the subject that op posted, we have strayed away from it.

 

[distracted]

I have 8 versions of Luke 1:28
“Gabriel appeared to her and said, Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you.”
1 Life application study bible say this and 4 of the New living translation Bible say this

“And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured the Lord is with thee blessed art thou among women.”
3 of the King James version Bible say this.

Out of 8 Bibles I didn’t find “full of grace.”

8 out of 8 says “favored woman” or “favoured woman.”

the King James is not the most reliable version of the Bible…

(it is named after a human, you know… )

i like the Douary Rheims because it is a word for word translation from the original languages… NOT an interpretive version, meaning that when the words were put into the new language, the persons working on this did not put their own (or any) interpretation on the words even when the meaning was somewhat ‘obscured’ through translation… even when it meant that the new version sounded odd… .becaues they did nOT want to mes with it… (take the chance of wording thing inaccurately… )

 

[distracted]

How can you say the Protestants don’t know Jesus. Your statement has a tone of arrorgance to it.

how can it have a tone of arrogance when i did not speak/write from arrogance? See, you can’t even interpret my words totally accurately… How can you interpret the Word of God infallibly without an infallible Church to guide you???

. You can’t generalize it because you don’t know that for a fact that “all” don’t. On a positive note, I’m glad that you know who Jesus really is, congradulations.

i can say it as fact because i have been “protestant” (tho not officially so) and i have also been a catechized Catholic.

you can’t say the same…

Big difference…

 

[distracted]

The phrase “full of grace” is “plaras karitos” That occures in only 2 places in the NT neither one is in reference to Mary

1. John1:14 " and the word became flesh, and dwelt among us. and behuld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth,"
2. Acts 6:8 “And Stephen, full of grace and power, was preforming great wonders and sings among the people.”

The Latin Vulgate is the Latin translation of the Bible done by St. Jerome in the 4th century. Latin translation which says “ave gratia plena” Hail full of grace.
Remember the NT was written in Greek, not Latin. The Romane Catholics derived its doctrine from Latin translation, not the Greek original. Therefore the translation is wrong and the doctrine is constructed on false translation.

*the Roman Catholic Church derives its doctrines from JEsus Christ… *

 

[distracted]

Sorry not buying it. We “all” were born with sin. The Bible says “all.” I don’t see all except Mary or anyone eles I see the word “All.” Ok then why was Jesus born instead of just being here, why was he born like the rest of us were?

as Reagan would say:

there you go again…

Adam and Eve were create without sin…

it seems you are saying that God can’t create humans without sin, even if it means having Jesus, the Very Word of God Incarnate, live in a sin-affected womb…

your God doesn’t seem to be very powerful…

 

[distracted]

All this is speculation. There is no evidence that Mary was born without sin. Although what you wrote sounds nice and pretty and full of sugar, it gives no hard undeniable evidence that she was born without sin. Its purely speculation full of “it could mean” “we might say” “might means.” Give me hard undeniable evidence not guess work.

holy pepole have hadthings revealed to them directly by God… that is not speculation…

St Bernedette was only a child when the Virgin appeared to her and told her she was the Immaculate Conception… The child didn’t even know what those words meant… had not heard them before… yet the pope had procliamed some years before the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception… Bernadette didn’t know anything about all that, just a peasant girl …

the Virgin Mary seems to have wanted to confirm the pope’s expounding on the Immaculate Conception doctrine… The Church probably always held that Mary was conceived w/o sin but it was not officially a doctrine of the Church until 1800s…

 

[distracted]

Must have hit a nerve. You can’t prove it so you resort to comparing me to a Atheist insinuating that I’m not a person of God. touchy, touchy, touchy are we. I see you don’t like to be put on the spot with something you can’t explain.

protestants believe a lot of things that are not in the Bible:

altar calls. those are nowhere to be found…

“accepting Christ as your personal Savior”

salvation is a one time event (“Are you saved?”) …

divorce and remarriage… not there…

acceptance of murder (abortion) not there (some prot churches teach abortion is ok when it is matter of rape or incest… Where does it say in the Bible that it is OK to kill an innocent person for the crimes of the guilty???

i could go on and on…

 

[distracted]

Did I say I cling to the sola scripture. I don’t recall ever saying that. That is your assumption not my words.

Never said the Bible was the sole authority. on.

might as well have… you keep acting like we Catholics have to find in Scripture, verbatim, that mary was immaculately conceived…

 

[distracted]

I believe in the authority of Jesus Christ, not a church that says they are the authority.

.

Jesus established one Church. if you read history you will realize it ws the Roman Catholic Church … all man-made churches came after that, after 1521 (Luther)…

as to that thing about oral tradition not being reliable…

The RCC has the REal Presence of Christ in the Church 24/7… THAT is what keeps the Word of God undiluted and undefiled or adulterated… We are not talking about ordinary human tradition… .

 

[emarc]

Sorry not buying it. We “all” were born with sin. The Bible says “all.” I don’t see all except Mary or anyone eles I see the word “All.” Ok then why was Jesus born instead of just being here, why was he born like the rest of us were?

hello- remember what Jesus said to Thomas after he saw the Lord in the flesh? “Blessed are they that have not seen,and yet have believed.” (Jn 20:29). we have to walk by faith and not by sight. but if you only believe what you see in the scripture, pls explain why you don’t believe in truly receiving the body and blood of Christ w/c he explained and repeated no less than 4 times in John 6:53ff? (this could be for another thread but it only shows how non-Catholics contradict themselves when they say sola scriptura). God bless.

 

[distracted]

hello- remember what Jesus said to Thomas after he saw the Lord in the flesh? “Blessed are they that have not seen,and yet have believed.” (Jn 20:29). we have to walk by faith and not by sight. but if you only believe what you see in the scripture, pls explain why you don’t believe in truly receiving the body and blood of Christ w/c he explained and repeated no less than 4 times in John 6:53ff? (this could be for another thread but it only shows how non-Catholics contradict themselves when they say sola scriptura). God bless.

good points…

since when do we have to have hard evidence for everything before we will believe??

praying the rosary will make someone believe in Mary’s holiness and a whole lot of other wonderful “things”…

 

[humblelurker]

FYI distracted: Large Letters usually means “yelling” or “shouting”.

 

[distracted]

FYI distracted: Large Letters usually means “yelling” or “shouting”.

not to me…

 

[rev_kevin]

how can it have a tone of arrogance when i did not speak/write from arrogance? See, you can’t even interpret my words totally accurately… How can you interpret the Word of God infallibly without an infallible Church to guide you???

i can say it as fact because i have been “protestant” (tho not officially so) and i have also been a catechized Catholic.

you can’t say the same…

Big difference…

You don’t know me so let me tell you. I was raised Catholic, baptized Catholic, made my first Holy Communion, Confermed, the hole 10 yards, went to seminary to be a priest for a year. Now I’m a non-denoinational preacher. So don’t tell me I can’t say the same when I have lived it and still living it.

You may think its not arrogant but I do, like it or not.

 

[rev_kevin]

as Reagan would say:

there you go again…

Adam and Eve were create without sin…

it seems you are saying that God can’t create humans without sin, even if it means having Jesus, the Very Word of God Incarnate, live in a sin-affected womb…

your God doesn’t seem to be very powerful…

When Adam and Eve was created there was no sin so it stands to logic the were without sin but they were the first to sin and gave us the sin we are born with. That argument don’t fly.

 

[redrosetea]

Mary was redeemed by Christ to be a fit vessel for him…God operates outside of time…past present and future are the eternal now for God

If she bore the stain of original sin Christ would have also bore it…Mary is the human element in the redemption process, and as such she had to be pure

 

[rev_kevin]

holy pepole have hadthings revealed to them directly by God… that is not speculation…

St Bernedette was only a child when the Virgin appeared to her and told her she was the Immaculate Conception… The child didn’t even know what those words meant… had not heard them before… yet the pope had procliamed some years before the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception… Bernadette didn’t know anything about all that, just a peasant girl …

the Virgin Mary seems to have wanted to confirm the pope’s expounding on the Immaculate Conception doctrine… The Church probably always held that Mary was conceived w/o sin but it was not officially a doctrine of the Church until 1800s…

Good story

 

[rev_kevin]

protestants believe a lot of things that are not in the Bible:

altar calls. those are nowhere to be found…

“accepting Christ as your personal Savior”

salvation is a one time event (“Are you saved?”) …

divorce and remarriage… not there…

acceptance of murder (abortion) not there (some prot churches teach abortion is ok when it is matter of rape or incest… Where does it say in the Bible that it is OK to kill an innocent person for the crimes of the guilty???

i could go on and on…

Look some may believe it ok to murder and that but not all. Thats like saying that because some priests molested children they all do.

Jesus was and is my personal savior.

Yes once saved always saved.

Your streaching things now.

 

[rev_kevin]

might as well have… you keep acting like we Catholics have to find in Scripture, verbatim, that mary was immaculately conceived…

You say it now prove it. You use scripture to try to prove she is but now you say you can’t.

 

[rev_kevin]

Jesus established one Church. if you read history you will realize it ws the Roman Catholic Church … all man-made churches came after that, after 1521 (Luther)…

as to that thing about oral tradition not being reliable…

The RCC has the REal Presence of Christ in the Church 24/7… THAT is what keeps the Word of God undiluted and undefiled or adulterated… We are not talking about ordinary human tradition… .

I stick by what I said.