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redrosetea
Guest
It is no different than proving the Trinity…Where is that in the Bible?
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Lapey
Guest
Ok, I’ll bite…why did you leave the Church, and how old were you?
You believe whole heartedly that you are obedient to the authority of Christ without a “church”, and I believe I am obedient to the authority of Christ because I am in His Church; the Church speaks and acts with His authority.
Oh and on the analogy of ten people and the message getting skewed, the New Testament is the written from oral tradition of the first century, so if your statement is your belief then you do not trust the New or Old Testament for that matter, to be reliable. If you disagree with this premise you are not being honest.
Saul’s conversion was around the late 30’s. His first letter is thought to have been written in the late 40’s or as late as the early 50’s.
What about the Gospels, if I’m not mistaken the earliest was written about 65AD, Mark; according to the majority of scholars? If these are in fact the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the earliest work, Mark, would have been whispered from person to person around the known world for at least 30 to 35 years. Now if I use your logic, there no way that this can be reliable, therefore the Gospels are in error and cannot be trusted.
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lil_flower_luv
Guest
Rev Kev, do you believe in Lourdes? Mary’s appearances there? You have a lot of personal beliefs, and I was wondering if this was one of them.
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lil_flower_luv
Guest
Yes, this is what I wanted, (thank you, distracted) Do you believe, Rev Kevin, that Lourdes is more than just a story?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
No, not to someone who believes Christ has the power to keep His word.
Maybe I’m not making my point clear enough. Let me articulate it a bit further. We believe and agree, I assume, that Christ was the only begotten Son of God, who came down from heaven for our sakes. For our salvation, he suffered, died, was buried and arose again on the third day. He ascended into heaven and His kingdom will have no end. Now, if Catholics prefer to believe Mary was born immaculate, does this have any bearing on their salvation, in your honest opinion? Does your believing she was a sinner, have any bearing on your salvation? In my humble opinion, I don’t believe it does and pray I’m right on this one. It’s not for me to judge another at all. I don’t want to get off my point here, which is, why is this such an important argument? Maybe it’s not that important to you, but it seems we have many Protestant visitors that come here and carry on like we’re endangering our salvation by believing God chose to have a spotless vessel for His Son to come into this world.
On the point of a 1500 year old Church, we can offer plenty of history to show the Catholic Church was here. The secular world has spent much of the time exposing sinful men of the Church, in hopes of somehow disposing of the Church it seems.
The word Catholic comes from the Greek, kata holos, which is found in the Greek translation of Acts 9:31. St. Ignatius wrote the following around 107AD, approximately the same time St. John wrote ‘Revelations’.
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
For 1500 years, people believed that to be the Catholic Church. It wasn’t interpreted to mean ‘many Churches’ until it was important to justify the birth of ‘many Churches’, which started in the 1500s.
The Catholic Church has a documented history back to the time of the Apostles. None of the other denominational Churches can produce such documentation. Those Churches came from the Catholic Church through the ‘reformation’. That’s why we all believe, what some call, the ‘essentials’.
It’s sad for some to say they’re sick of hearing that, especially when they cannot produce any documentation to show otherwise. I realize it’s based on their faith, but it’s without the ‘hard evidence’ that Protestants require of certain Catholic beliefs.
(CONTINUED)
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I don’t believe all Christians have to be a part of the Catholic Church to be a part of the body of believers. It is my opinion though, that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth and Protestant Churches are operating without the fullness. I have explained that I believe those Churches came from the Catholic Church and they did not take everything they have when they broke away through the reformation.
It is not my intention to stray from the topic that some find so important. As I explained, why argue such points that have no impact on one’s salvation? Is this attempting to be of the same mind and judgment that scriptures plainly tell us to be?
You seem to be in a hurry to get back to the topic, because it is based on Catholic teaching and FAITH, simply because it comes without that ‘hard evidence’. It also seems to be that you are particularly interested in avoiding any discussion about some of your faith that comes without the same ‘hard evidence’…
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rev_kevin
Guest
Not trying to avoid anything.
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Justy90
Guest
so then where do the Eastern Orthodox come in?
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Justy90
Guest
prove that she was.
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rev_kevin
Guest
And that includes some Catholics right.
I know Christ has the power to keep his word.
But I don’t believe Mary was born without sin and that is what started the attack on me and my religion
Your religion believes the way they believe and mine believes the way mine believes. We all know your church was the first, its been crambed down our throuts, and ours wasn’t whoopy that don’t mean we are less of a religion or the we love God less it just proves your’s was first.
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rev_kevin
Guest
I left the church because I disagreed with their some of their beliefs and some of their teachings. I was around 25.
The Gospels were written by the Holy Spirit through men.
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rev_kevin
Guest
Lets see if I got this right.
The first apparition was Feb. 11, 1858 to a 14 year old girl and the last was July 16, 1858.
She was the only one to see and hear her even with others present.
The mysterious fountain, in the grotto itself, the existence is unknown and there was no sign.
She wanted a chapel to be build but the clergy was incredulous. 4 years later in 1862 a Bishop declared the faithful "justified in believing the reality of the apparition.
Do I have it correct?
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Mosacked
Guest
Whether Mary was saved before during or after conception…is really NOT IMPORTANT. Why?
Because…
What did Jesus say?
**“I AM THE TRUTH, THE WAY AND THE LIFE. NO MAN GOES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT TROUGH ME”.
**
If your father tells you, “now son, I’m the **only one **with the tickets… take this ticket and go attend the concert before the door closes”…do you stay around and ask him “eh…so did grandmother go in before or during or after you…and should I go get the ticket from her instead???”
I believe by the time you find your grandmother, the concert door would have closed. And you know what? Your grandmother will tell you “didn’t you hear what your father said??? HE HAS THE TICKETS! GOSH!!!..YOU’RE NOW SHUT OUT!”
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Because…
What did Jesus say?
**“I AM THE TRUTH, THE WAY AND THE LIFE. NO MAN GOES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT TROUGH ME”.
**
If your father tells you, “now son, I’m the **only one **with the tickets… take this ticket and go attend the concert before the door closes”…do you stay around and ask him “eh…so did grandmother go in before or during or after you…and should I go get the ticket from her instead???”
I believe by the time you find your grandmother, the concert door would have closed. And you know what? Your grandmother will tell you “didn’t you hear what your father said??? HE HAS THE TICKETS! GOSH!!!..YOU’RE NOW SHUT OUT!”
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rev_kevin
Guest
The word "trinity does not appear in the Bible.
Matthew 3:16-17 “After his baptism, as Jesus came up out of the water, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and settling on him. And a voice from heaven said, This is my beloved Son, and I am fully pleased with him.”
Lets see you have Jesus the Son of God, The Spirit of God descending like a dove which is the Holy Spirit, and the voice of God. Hmm I see the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, it the trinity.
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rev_kevin
Guest
What??? If Mary bore the sin Christ would have also bore it. Hmm I thought God can do anything so if he can not give Mary sin couldn’t he do the same for Christ even if Mary was with sin.
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rev_kevin
Guest
cool
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
It seems you’re just searching to somehow ‘win’. I have repeatedly said, WE believe, as in you and I, Protestants and Catholics. We are both believers in Christ, which makes us Christians.
What started a heated debate was you announcing we were wrong about our belief in Mary. Again, you say ‘your’ religion. I’m sorry but I totally disagree with that statement and I believe you do as well. Christ called US all to our faiths, which makes us Christians. Faith in Christ doesn’t belong to any one individual.
Again, who’s getting touchy now? The first Church, commissioned by Christ, with His promises to be with it until the consummation of the world and His assurance that even the gates of hell would not prevail against it. That shouldn’t irk you in the least, I would think. It seems we’d be searching for a way to be of the same mind and judgment. Afterall, isn’t that what the inspired word of God tells us to be? We shouldn’t even be at odds in the least. Christ taught us to love our enemies and believe me, we are not your enemy.
Think about how you’ve spoke about the ‘first’ Church, which as I said, was commissioned by Christ. That first Church is, as you say, a very big ‘whoopy’.
My point is, why not spend time trying to find out our commonalities, as opposed to beating on our differences? Those things that do not affect a person’s salvation do nothing to bring us together to be ONE as Christ wanted.
**Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.
Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Rom 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.**
There are a lot more beneficial things we could be discussing. Wouldn’t you agree?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
If the Holy Spirit can write Gospels through men, couldn’t the Holy Spirit guide the men of the Church to define the canon of the Bible? Couldn’t the Holy Spirit protect Christ’s Church until the consummation of the world, in affect protecting God’s truth?
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peary1
Guest
You can’t fix stupid
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Look at the instructions for the ark of the covenant…
Exo 25:11 And thou shalt overlay it with the purest gold, within and without; and over it thou shalt make a golden crown round about:
Exo 25:12 And four golden rings, which thou shalt put at the four corners of the ark: let two rings be on the one side, and two on the other.
Exo 25:13 Thou shalt make bars also of setim wood, and shalt overlay them with gold.
Exo 25:14 And thou shalt put them in through the rings that are in the sides of the ark, that it may be carried on them:
Exo 25:15 And they shall be always in the rings, neither shall they at any time be drawn out of them.
Exo 25:16 And thou shalt put in the ark the testimony which I will give thee.
Exo 25:17 Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half.
Exo 25:18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle.
Exo 25:19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.
Exo 25:20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to to be covered.
Exo 25:21 In which thou shalt put the testimony that I will give thee.
How can anyone think that God would take any less planning for the vessel of the new and everlasting covenant?
In Genesis, God inspired it be written;
Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall cursh thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
His plan for Mary was spoken about way previous to Mary’s conception…
**Luk 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luk 1:30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
Luk 1:37 Because no word shall be impossible with God.**
She was full of grace. If you want to argue that, scriptures plainly say that Mary had found grace with God and nothing would be impossible with God.
Exo 25:11 And thou shalt overlay it with the purest gold, within and without; and over it thou shalt make a golden crown round about:
Exo 25:12 And four golden rings, which thou shalt put at the four corners of the ark: let two rings be on the one side, and two on the other.
Exo 25:13 Thou shalt make bars also of setim wood, and shalt overlay them with gold.
Exo 25:14 And thou shalt put them in through the rings that are in the sides of the ark, that it may be carried on them:
Exo 25:15 And they shall be always in the rings, neither shall they at any time be drawn out of them.
Exo 25:16 And thou shalt put in the ark the testimony which I will give thee.
Exo 25:17 Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half.
Exo 25:18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle.
Exo 25:19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.
Exo 25:20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to to be covered.
Exo 25:21 In which thou shalt put the testimony that I will give thee.
How can anyone think that God would take any less planning for the vessel of the new and everlasting covenant?
In Genesis, God inspired it be written;
Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall cursh thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
His plan for Mary was spoken about way previous to Mary’s conception…
**Luk 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luk 1:30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
Luk 1:37 Because no word shall be impossible with God.**
She was full of grace. If you want to argue that, scriptures plainly say that Mary had found grace with God and nothing would be impossible with God.
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