Sat (Dec 12) Mass readings (Mary was saved before conception?)

[Prodigal_Son1]

Whether Mary was saved before during or after conception…is really NOT IMPORTANT. Why?

Because…

What did Jesus say?

**“I AM THE TRUTH, THE WAY AND THE LIFE. NO MAN GOES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT TROUGH ME”.
**

If your father tells you, “now son, I’m the **only one **with the tickets… take this ticket and go attend the concert before the door closes”…do you stay around and ask him “eh…so did grandmother go in before or during or after you…and should I go get the ticket from her instead???”

I believe by the time you find your grandmother, the concert door would have closed. And you know what? Your grandmother will tell you “didn’t you hear what your father said??? HE HAS THE TICKETS! GOSH!!!..YOU’RE NOW SHUT OUT!”

.

It seems to me you’re confused with the discussion, or maybe I’m misreading your statement somehow? Saying Mary was immaculately conceived, is not saying she is the way. Can you please clarify what you’re trying to imply?

 

[Lapey]

I left the church because I disagreed with their some of their beliefs and some of their teachings. I was around 25.

The Gospels were written by the Holy Spirit through men.

What beliefs did you disagree with? Are they teachings or doctrine that you feel are in contrast to scripture?

On the second point, you cannot ignore historical fact to believe what you want to believe. It doesn’t work that way.

You discredit tradition then you ignore the fact that scripture was tradition before being written, and yes written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, but oral tradition none the less.

The Book of Daniel was written in the second century BC about a fifth century event, you cannot discredit one and not the other. Dont you see the inconsistancy?

 

[rev_kevin]

It seems you’re just searching to somehow ‘win’. I have repeatedly said, WE believe, as in you and I, Protestants and Catholics. We are both believers in Christ, which makes us Christians.

What started a heated debate was you announcing we were wrong about our belief in Mary. Again, you say ‘your’ religion. I’m sorry but I totally disagree with that statement and I believe you do as well. Christ called US all to our faiths, which makes us Christians. Faith in Christ doesn’t belong to any one individual.

Again, who’s getting touchy now? The first Church, commissioned by Christ, with His promises to be with it until the consummation of the world and His assurance that even the gates of hell would not prevail against it. That shouldn’t irk you in the least, I would think. It seems we’d be searching for a way to be of the same mind and judgment. Afterall, isn’t that what the inspired word of God tells us to be? We shouldn’t even be at odds in the least. Christ taught us to love our enemies and believe me, we are not your enemy.

Think about how you’ve spoke about the ‘first’ Church, which as I said, was commissioned by Christ. That first Church is, as you say, a very big ‘whoopy’.

My point is, why not spend time trying to find out our commonalities, as opposed to beating on our differences? Those things that do not affect a person’s salvation do nothing to bring us together to be ONE as Christ wanted.

**Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Rom 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,

Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.**

There are a lot more beneficial things we could be discussing. Wouldn’t you agree?

You said we believe in the same thing and want to find out commonalites as opposed to beating on our differences. But when I said “lets get back to the subject” you replied with “You seem to be in a hurry to get back to the topic, because it is based on Catholic teachings of faith, simply because it comes without that ‘hard evidence.’ It also seems to be that you are particularly interested in avoiding any discussion about some of your faith that comes without the same ‘hard evidence.’”
Then when I said why I left the church at the age of 25 and the Gospel was written by the Holy Spirit through men. What did you do. Instead of agreeing because you know that is true, you have to say couldn’t the Holy Spirit guide men of the church to define the canon of the Bible, couldn’t the Holy Spirit protect Christs church…in effect protecting God’s truth.
See I believe that Christ is the only church and you don’t. I agree with what you said in this post except the part about the church. Now is it going to be we agree that we believe in the same thing like you said or not.

 

[Reuben_J]

Did I say I cling to the sola scripture. I don’t recall ever saying that. That is your assumption not my words.

Never said the Bible was the sole authority. Once again you are making assumptions on what I never said.

Rev, you did not say categorically that you cling to Sola Sciptura but you did ask “where in the Bible it says Immaculate Conception?” You asked proof from the Bible. You know you will get into trouble when you go into that line of argument – there is no explicit verse that says Mary was immaculately concepted but there is also none about the Trinity too. The Trinity is an understanding from the Bible that came out from the church and similarly so was the Immaculate Conception.

Where did I say that I was giving my privite interpretation of the Bible. I have researched and went to school. Besides everything is ones personal interpretation. See everything has to be interprated eather by one person or a group of people even the Bible was interprated by someone.

So its not ok for someone to interprate but it was ok in the 4th century for someone to because of tradition.

Personal interpretations are interpretations that deviate from the original interpretation by the Church. This has been repeated many times in the Forum, but the Catholic Church was the one who decided, compiled and canonized the Bible. In other word the books included in the Bible are the ones that can faithfully explain the doctrines which were understood through the traditions of the Church then.

Why do we believe John 6 is literal? It is because the authors of the Bible believe it is so which was practiced through tradition. When later Christians did not believe this they strayed from the original understanding of the Bible with their own private interpretation.

So it is not correct to say that the 4th century Church Fathers interpreted the Bible personally. If they did so and came out with personal interpretation that differs from tradition then their interpretation would not be accepted; if they persisted they would be declared heretics. From History, the Church was undivided until the schism and therefore it is fair to say that there was no personal interpretation within the church then that she accepted.

The reformers were in effect saying that the Bible writers were wrong in understanding what Jesus said. And these mistakes were eventually highlighted 1500 years later. In other word, the Church had lived with a lie all this while.

God bless.

 

[rev_kevin]

What beliefs did you disagree with? Are they teachings or doctrine that you feel are in contrast to scripture?

On the second point, you cannot ignore historical fact to believe what you want to believe. It doesn’t work that way.

You discredit tradition then you ignore the fact that scripture was tradition before being written, and yes written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, but oral tradition none the less.

The Book of Daniel was written in the second century BC about a fifth century event, you cannot discredit one and not the other. Dont you see the inconsistancy?

Look I have been attacked left and right by you vultures, I say vultures because it started with one and the 2 then several started to attack and still are. Do you get some kind of thrill doing this to a person. Do you have to pound and pound ever little thing I say. Any you wonder why I left the so called church. I don’t want to be a part of your church if this is the way you treat people. And you are God fearing my butt. You say you are doing it to defend your church. If you have to stoop so low to defend your church you don’t know what a real Christian is. We are to love our neighbors and love your enemies. You don’t practice what you preach. Now with that said BACK OFF VULTURES.
P.S. I am waiting for the evil responces to this because I know you can’t resist the temptation to rip into me like good Christians do.
P.S.S. I know you will say that I’m being less then Christian like but you haven’t been attacked like I have.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You said we believe in the same thing and want to find out commonalites as opposed to beating on our differences. But when I said “lets get back to the subject” you replied with “You seem to be in a hurry to get back to the topic, because it is based on Catholic teachings of faith, simply because it comes without that ‘hard evidence.’ It also seems to be that you are particularly interested in avoiding any discussion about some of your faith that comes without the same ‘hard evidence.’”
Then when I said why I left the church at the age of 25 and the Gospel was written by the Holy Spirit through men. What did you do. Instead of agreeing because you know that is true, you have to say couldn’t the Holy Spirit guide men of the church to define the canon of the Bible, couldn’t the Holy Spirit protect Christs church…in effect protecting God’s truth.
See I believe that Christ is the only church and you don’t. I agree with what you said in this post except the part about the church. Now is it going to be we agree that we believe in the same thing like you said or not.

I’m sorry you didn’t understand that I agree the Holy Spirit guided men to write the Gospels. With that I just wondered if you agree the Holy Spirit guided men of the Church to define the canon of the Bible. See, I believe God (name removed by moderator)sired the scriptures, but He didn’t inspire a list of what writings were to be included in the Bible. He had to use men of the Church to do that. With the same power, God has protected His truth through the Church Christ started. Christ is the head of the Church. He commissioned men to be in positions of authority over that Church, in what He knew would be, in His earthly absence. Now we head toward another topic though. Christ gave the men of the Church the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the authority to bind and loose on earth, with a promise it would be bound and loosed in heaven. He also specified their authority to forgive sins. There is much written showing specific discussions between our Lord and ONLY the Apostles.

I am not trying to argue with you, as much as explain the Catholic position. It very hard to read tones in what is written in this type fora.

You and I have more in common than you might imagine. You were a fireman, I work in EMS. You changed Churches at an early age and I changed Churches at an early age. It was the multitude of denominations that made me want to search out the true Church. After much research, reflection and prayer, God led me to the Catholic Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Look I have been attacked left and right by you vultures, I say vultures because it started with one and the 2 then several started to attack and still are. Do you get some kind of thrill doing this to a person. Do you have to pound and pound ever little thing I say. Any you wonder why I left the so called church. I don’t want to be a part of your church if this is the way you treat people. And you are God fearing my butt. You say you are doing it to defend your church. If you have to stoop so low to defend your church you don’t know what a real Christian is. We are to love our neighbors and love your enemies. You don’t practice what you preach. Now with that said BACK OFF VULTURES.
P.S. I am waiting for the evil responces to this because I know you can’t resist the temptation to rip into me like good Christians do.
P.S.S. I know you will say that I’m being less then Christian like but you haven’t been attacked like I have.

Dude, read this post of yours and realize, you may need a break. I see people making a strong defense of their beliefs and not so much attacking you. This is a Catholic forum and admittedly, you are the minority. I understand it’s a tough position to be in, but you have to understand, just as you are strong in your beliefs, we are just as strong in ours. I’ve asked before, what do you expect? You are saying our beliefs are wrong and we’re going to put up the strongest argument we can.

I’ll repeat it once again. It’s very hard to read tones in this type fora. I am not attacking you. I am just putting forth the best debate I can.

 

[rev_kevin]

Dude, read this post of yours and realize, you may need a break. I see people making a strong defense of their beliefs and not so much attacking you. This is a Catholic forum and admittedly, you are the minority. I understand it’s a tough position to be in, but you have to understand, just as you are strong in your beliefs, we are just as strong in ours. I’ve asked before, what do you expect? You are saying our beliefs are wrong and we’re going to put up the strongest argument we can.

I’ll repeat it once again. It’s very hard to read tones in this type fora. I am not attacking you. I am just putting forth the best debate I can.

Debating with one or 2 is fine but when you get it from 5,6,7 people you are being attacked. Its like they see someone getting hammered and they swoop down like vultures to help with the kill. Having strong beliefs is one thing but to be called, in assumption, a Athiest, ignorant. and so on is attacking. I never said you were wrong, I just said prove your point and then it started one then another then another then another. Man a person can take so much. So far this post has been back and forth with me. So ya it seems like being attacked. I’m sure me and you can get along but this has got to stop.

 

[TEPO]

Immaculate Conception and Holy Eucharist are the two main stumbling blocks that many possible Catholic converts fall over… It boils down to lies like : -“Catholics worship Mary”, and disbeliefs like: -“Jesus didnt mean to actually eat his flesh and drink his blood” that cause protestants to stumble…

The Muslims think we worship 3 Gods…

 

[rev_kevin]

Dude, read this post of yours and realize, you may need a break. I see people making a strong defense of their beliefs and not so much attacking you. This is a Catholic forum and admittedly, you are the minority. I understand it’s a tough position to be in, but you have to understand, just as you are strong in your beliefs, we are just as strong in ours. I’ve asked before, what do you expect? You are saying our beliefs are wrong and we’re going to put up the strongest argument we can.

I’ll repeat it once again. It’s very hard to read tones in this type fora. I am not attacking you. I am just putting forth the best debate I can.

Out of 88 posts 67 have to do with me and 21 have not. There has been 37 postings to me and I responded 28 times. This post has been back and forth with me. See why I think its an attack.

 

[TEPO]

Look I have been attacked left and right by you vultures, I say vultures because it started with one and the 2 then several started to attack and still are. Do you get some kind of thrill doing this to a person. Do you have to pound and pound ever little thing I say. Any you wonder why I left the so called church. I don’t want to be a part of your church if this is the way you treat people. And you are God fearing my butt. You say you are doing it to defend your church. If you have to stoop so low to defend your church you don’t know what a real Christian is. We are to love our neighbors and love your enemies. You don’t practice what you preach. Now with that said BACK OFF VULTURES.
P.S. I am waiting for the evil responces to this because I know you can’t resist the temptation to rip into me like good Christians do.
P.S.S. I know you will say that I’m being less then Christian like but you haven’t been attacked like I have.

I really want to convert you to a Catholic…

We just love the woman that God -(Creator of all things)- found worthy to carry His only Son.

 

[TEPO]

Out of 88 posts 67 have to do with me and 21 have not. There has been 37 postings to me and I responded 28 times. This post has been back and forth with me. See why I think its an attack.

I just want you to understand. You see, there are a lot of protestants who claim that Mary deserves NO special attention, and that it is even a sin to ask her to place our requests before the feet of Jesus…

But even at the wedding of Cana, the Bible proves that Mary will place a problem before Jesus (even though it was not something that he wanted to do) and Jesus will do MIRACLES for his mother… Jesus didnt really want to, but he still made wine for the guests when the supply ran out.

Back to the OP, does anyone really think its IMPOSSIBLE for God to arrange for Mary to be without sin in order for God to enter her womb. I mean to say that there was no immaculate conception would be a bit of an insult to God, as that would mean that God Himself Creator of all things, would insert His only Son into the womb of a sinner.

Mary was special.

 

[maryj]

Gen 3:15. Enmity-in total opposition to the serpent. What is the total opposition to sin?

 

[Lapey]

Rev Kevin;
“Must have hit a nerve. You can’t prove it so you resort to comparing me to a Atheist insinuating that I’m not a person of God. touchy, touchy, touchy are we. I see you don’t like to be put on the spot with something you can’t explain.”

Lapey;
I think we hit a nerve, reread your last sentence aimed at another poster.

Rev Kevin;
“Oral tradition, well have you ever sat in a room with 10 or more people in a circle and say a phrase to one then they say what they heard to the other and so on and so on, when it gets back to you its nothing close to what you said in the first place. So I don’t put my trust in oral tradition because after being told again and again things get twisted and come out different than what it was originally meant to be.

I don’t believe I said the Bible wasn’t the sole authority. I said I didn’t say that. Now you are interpretating what you think I meant.

Once again I said I didn’t say that about personal interpretation. You are using you own interpretation in what I said.

Does one have to deny or accept it inorder to say I never mentioned it.

I believe in the authority of Jesus Christ, not a church that says they are the authority.

It concerns you to hear the the Catholic church is wrong. Well that is what we are told all the time here that we are wrong, so how do you think we feel.”

Lapey;
This is how you got me into this discussion that you call an attack fest by “VULTURES”.
You attack every thing we as Catholics bring up to defend our belief, and then you are amazed that we defend our faith, I am at a loss. To compare the oral tradition passed down through the centuries from the Apostles to a group of “whoever’s” is condescending and insulting and against the teaching of the scriptures. But you will not see this because you have your anti Catholic filters on when you read scripture. If you truly are a Reverend, I hope you are more inclusive and respectful from the pulpit then you are here; especially if you are so thin skinned.

Scripture reads that all is not written, continue to spread what I have taught you, etc. many places in scripture that point to traditions. Two types are mentioned; tradition of men, the Jewish leaders of the day, and the tradition of God which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached and passed on to the succeeding centuries in written and oral form. Both are the Word of God, and tradition of God. But your tradition of men, and you can call your tradition non-denominational but it is a tradition none the less, will not allow you to do anything but attack the Catholic tradition of God.

If you would allow yourself to study the scripture and the Church Fathers in their contexts, you could see the truth within the Church.

For 2000 years the Church has discerned the meaning of scripture and tradition, very seldom in history has a pope made such a declaration invoking “infallibility” as the teaching of the Immaculate Conception. In this particular case you cannot find ANY scripture that states plainly that this is not in fact the way it was, and neither can I find anything that plainly states that the Churches position is correct either, so this is where the divide is. If I use anything outside of scripture you attack it; that sounds like sola scriptura to me.

Rev Kevin, if you truly want dialog don’t be surprised by diversity. Don’t be so condescending in your responses of the Catholic beliefs being stated on a Catholic website.

You never answered my question, and I know you don’t have to, about what beliefs and teachings convinced you to leave. I wish people could take the time to learn the faith in which they are leaving before they decided to leave. Most of the Catholics that leave are very weakly catechized, that’s our fault. But it is also theirs, because they didn’t learn the truth about where they were before they went looking for something new. That is a shame.

It boils down to this question, did you go to something or run away from something. I can tell you in my experience it is more of the latter, and that is sad.

 

[humblelurker]

Let’s look at scripture from a different perspective:
Only twice in sacred scripture is one person physically born from one other person:
Eve from Adam
Jesus from Mary
Eve then gets her sinless humanity from Adam, so Jesus gets his sinless humanity from Mary (Thus it is balanced). Thus, Adam was created without sin, so Mary was conceived without sin. Jesus is the 2nd (last) Adam, so Mary is the 2nd (last) Eve. Eve is the Mother of the living, and Mary is the Mother of the saved since the saved are one body in Christ.

So God created man first, the first time, and everything went wrong, but the second time woman was created first and everything turned out right. I admit that it does help to have God as your son.

Smiles everyone smiles….

………………

This is a tough crowd.

 

[rev_kevin]

Rev Kevin;
“Must have hit a nerve. You can’t prove it so you resort to comparing me to a Atheist insinuating that I’m not a person of God. touchy, touchy, touchy are we. I see you don’t like to be put on the spot with something you can’t explain.”

Lapey;
I think we hit a nerve, reread your last sentence aimed at another poster.

Rev Kevin;
“Oral tradition, well have you ever sat in a room with 10 or more people in a circle and say a phrase to one then they say what they heard to the other and so on and so on, when it gets back to you its nothing close to what you said in the first place. So I don’t put my trust in oral tradition because after being told again and again things get twisted and come out different than what it was originally meant to be.

I don’t believe I said the Bible wasn’t the sole authority. I said I didn’t say that. Now you are interpretating what you think I meant.

Once again I said I didn’t say that about personal interpretation. You are using you own interpretation in what I said.

Does one have to deny or accept it inorder to say I never mentioned it.

I believe in the authority of Jesus Christ, not a church that says they are the authority.

It concerns you to hear the the Catholic church is wrong. Well that is what we are told all the time here that we are wrong, so how do you think we feel.”

Lapey;
This is how you got me into this discussion that you call an attack fest by “VULTURES”.
You attack every thing we as Catholics bring up to defend our belief, and then you are amazed that we defend our faith, I am at a loss. To compare the oral tradition passed down through the centuries from the Apostles to a group of “whoever’s” is condescending and insulting and against the teaching of the scriptures. But you will not see this because you have your anti Catholic filters on when you read scripture. If you truly are a Reverend, I hope you are more inclusive and respectful from the pulpit then you are here; especially if you are so thin skinned.

Scripture reads that all is not written, continue to spread what I have taught you, etc. many places in scripture that point to traditions. Two types are mentioned; tradition of men, the Jewish leaders of the day, and the tradition of God which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached and passed on to the succeeding centuries in written and oral form. Both are the Word of God, and tradition of God. But your tradition of men, and you can call your tradition non-denominational but it is a tradition none the less, will not allow you to do anything but attack the Catholic tradition of God.

If you would allow yourself to study the scripture and the Church Fathers in their contexts, you could see the truth within the Church.

For 2000 years the Church has discerned the meaning of scripture and tradition, very seldom in history has a pope made such a declaration invoking “infallibility” as the teaching of the Immaculate Conception. In this particular case you cannot find ANY scripture that states plainly that this is not in fact the way it was, and neither can I find anything that plainly states that the Churches position is correct either, so this is where the divide is. If I use anything outside of scripture you attack it; that sounds like sola scriptura to me.

Rev Kevin, if you truly want dialog don’t be surprised by diversity. Don’t be so condescending in your responses of the Catholic beliefs being stated on a Catholic website.

You never answered my question, and I know you don’t have to, about what beliefs and teachings convinced you to leave. I wish people could take the time to learn the faith in which they are leaving before they decided to leave. Most of the Catholics that leave are very weakly catechized, that’s our fault. But it is also theirs, because they didn’t learn the truth about where they were before they went looking for something new. That is a shame.

It boils down to this question, did you go to something or run away from something. I can tell you in my experience it is more of the latter, and that is sad.

This post has been mostly about me. I don’t believe in telling a priest my sins,I don’t need a middle man for me to ask God for forgiveness.
I don’t believe in the ritual type of stuff they do.
I don’t pray to anyone eles but God.
I don’t ask for Mary or any St. to intercead for me. There is no need for that.
I don’t believe that one must be baptizes as a infant.
I believe once saved always saved. You don’t
I don’t believe that it is the only true church.
I don’t like the way the mass is.
this is just to name a few.

 

[rev_kevin]

I really want to convert you to a Catholic…

We just love the woman that God -(Creator of all things)- found worthy to carry His only Son.

Why?

 

[rev_kevin]

I just want you to understand. You see, there are a lot of protestants who claim that Mary deserves NO special attention, and that it is even a sin to ask her to place our requests before the feet of Jesus…

But even at the wedding of Cana, the Bible proves that Mary will place a problem before Jesus (even though it was not something that he wanted to do) and Jesus will do MIRACLES for his mother… Jesus didnt really want to, but he still made wine for the guests when the supply ran out.

Back to the OP, does anyone really think its IMPOSSIBLE for God to arrange for Mary to be without sin in order for God to enter her womb. I mean to say that there was no immaculate conception would be a bit of an insult to God, as that would mean that God Himself Creator of all things, would insert His only Son into the womb of a sinner.

Mary was special.

I don’t believe it and you do. So be it.

 

[Lapey]

This post has been mostly about me. I don’t believe in telling a priest my sins,I don’t need a middle man for me to ask God for forgiveness.
I don’t believe in the ritual type of stuff they do.
I don’t pray to anyone eles but God.
I don’t ask for Mary or any St. to intercead for me. There is no need for that.
I don’t believe that one must be baptizes as a infant.
I believe once saved always saved. You don’t
I don’t believe that it is the only true church.
I don’t like the way the mass is.
this is just to name a few.

Ok, so anything “catholic” is bad. I get it.

Saint Justin Martyr liked the Mass the way it is, two appologies from about 155AD. Also john, the author of Revalation, liked it too. He wrote abaout the Heavenly worship, but I guess you dont see any parralells.

I could refute each and every one of the items you site with scripture, or tradition or both, but I am willing to bet you would discount everything I site.

What happened that causes you to hate the Church so much?

 

[distracted]

You don’t know me so let me tell you. I was raised Catholic, baptized Catholic, made my first Holy Communion, Confermed, the hole 10 yards, went to seminary to be a priest for a year. Now I’m a non-denoinational preacher. So don’t tell me I can’t say the same when I have lived it and still living it.

You may think its not arrogant but I do, like it or not.

its not arrogant… you see evil where it does not exist…

and if you reject Christ’s Church you reject Him…