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distracted
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don’t know enough to say…
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TEPO
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distracted
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distracted
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it’s like i always say Those ex-Catholics are the toughest… Whew!! :coolinoff:
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distracted
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if i can be totally honest about the way i see things…
i think ex-Catholics are the toughest … because to leave the original Church (only one, of course)… is a serious thing… There had to be somethng terribly wrong in the first place for the person to leave… It is one thing to disagree or feel that something doesn’t set well as far as doctrines or practices… but it is another thing entirely to LEAVE the Church…
i don’t think all the cards are on the table…
i think ex-Catholics are the toughest … because to leave the original Church (only one, of course)… is a serious thing… There had to be somethng terribly wrong in the first place for the person to leave… It is one thing to disagree or feel that something doesn’t set well as far as doctrines or practices… but it is another thing entirely to LEAVE the Church…
i don’t think all the cards are on the table…
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TEPO
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I see what you mean… I feel like wiping the dust from my sandals, but at the same time feel compelled to push the issue.
I just want to help because I think it is a shame to see a fallen Catholic. Very sad.
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distracted
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TEPO
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Why convert you, or why love Mary?
(convert might be the wrong word as you are already a Catholic)
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distracted
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well, you can count me out…
maybe i have attention deficit disorder or something but i get tired of…
well, this…
:banghead::banghead:
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rev_kevin
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Never said I hate the Catholic church. I said I don’t believe in some of their way and beliefs. Its not hate if you don’t believe. Once again just because I don’t believe in some of the things about the Catholic faith don’t make it bad. I’m not St. Justin Martyr and I see not discription in the Bible that you should only worship the way Catholics do. I know you can refute each and every one of my items with scripture, tradition or both. You wouldn’t be the first one to refute it. Once again I never said I hate the Catholic church so much, I just disagree with some of their way. I never said the word hate, to disagree isn’t hate. Have you ever disagreed with someone? I know you have because you are disagreeing with me, so then according to you you would hate that person you disagree with…
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rev_kevin
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rev_kevin
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Tired of the truth. See numbers don’t lie.
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rev_kevin
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I guess you don’t see the numbers like I do. 67 out of 88 that have to do with me. But its ok I’m not Catholic.
Now you give me, Jesus changed water into wine for his mother. She was his mother. Wouldn’t you do something for your mother even if you didn’t want to. Of course you would. Now this don’t show that Mary was born without sin. It showes Jesus loved his mother enough to do something for her that he really didn’t want to do. It only showes love to his mother.
Ya why wouldn’t he insert his only Son into the womb of a sinner. Just because Mary was a sinner don’t make Jesus a sinner. Now why was Jesus born in a stable and his bed a feeding trough instead of a mansion with a regular bed. Why would God do that to his Son. Or why was Jesus born at all instead of just appearing here. Maybe because God wanted him to be normal and have a normal mother like all the other mothers with sin.
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lil_flower_luv
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You have it correct but do you believe it really happened?
God treasures simplicity but I don’t think He was thinking “normal” when He did what He did. You protestants are always so proud of Jesus being conceived by the Holy Spirit - that He has a pure and sinless blood line. Well, why then, are you so against His Mother being sinless? You downplay her role and that really makes me angry.
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maryj
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Again I ask, what is the total opposition to sin?
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rev_kevin
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To answer your first question. No not really but thats my opinion. Even the clergy didn’t believe it except a Bishop 4 years later. It never says that the clergy ever believe it.
To answer your second question. Even Jesus’ bloodline was not pure and sinless. To say that you would have to say they are God which they are not. They were born with sin so its impossable to be sinless and if you are born with sin you can not be pure. Now Jesus is God correct and he is without sin correct. So if you say Mary was born without sin then she would be like God who is and always was sinless correct.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Below is what the early Church fathers wrote about the immaculate conception.
Justin Martyr
[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).
Origen
This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).
Hippolytus
He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).
Ephraim the Syrian
You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).
Ambrose of Milan
Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).
Gregory Nazianzen
He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).
Justin Martyr
[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).
Origen
This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).
Hippolytus
He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).
Ephraim the Syrian
You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).
Ambrose of Milan
Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).
Gregory Nazianzen
He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).
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rev_kevin
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Some of it I have already heard but some I haven’t. I need to ponder this before I make a comment.
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TEPO
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You should be flattered.
Catholic teaching claims that Mary was like Adam and Eve as she was born without original sin… In this case, Mary was not “concupiscent”. In other words --she had no “natural” desire for sin. No selfishness or greed, which are direct results of the original sin "plague’ that effects us all. Adam and Eve did not have this desire, that is until the physical tempt of satan… They were incapable of sin from within -it had to be introduced from the outside.
Without concupiscence, Mary was also incapable of sin from within. Only direct tempts from satan could cause her to sin. But she was under Gods protection. She was now worthy of Gods presence. Do you really think that God would put the MESSIAH into harms way by giving him to a sinner??? After all, God had to physically protect the Messiah once he was born by having him transported to egypt… The devil was on the move every chance he got. It was a carefully planned operation, in which God saved the fate of the human race… Why would God take chances on something so important?
You dont really think that the living conditions of Jesus were of any importance do you? Especially since His primary mission was to be hung upon the crucifix till death, only to enter into hell and destroy satans grip on mankind.
No I dont think God was concearned with Jesus having a “normal” life… Actually His life was quite extraordinary.
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TEPO
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Jesus lived a life of Poverty, chastity, and obedience to the Father.
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