Sat (Dec 12) Mass readings (Mary was saved before conception?)

[rev_kevin]

You should be flattered.

Catholic teaching claims that Mary was like Adam and Eve as she was born without original sin… In this case, Mary was not “concupiscent”. In other words --she had no “natural” desire for sin. No selfishness or greed, which are direct results of the original sin "plague’ that effects us all. Adam and Eve did not have this desire, that is until the physical tempt of satan… They were incapable of sin from within -it had to be introduced from the outside.

Without concupiscence, Mary was also incapable of sin from within. Only direct tempts from satan could cause her to sin. But she was under Gods protection. She was now worthy of Gods presence. Do you really think that God would put the MESSIAH into harms way by giving him to a sinner??? After all, God had to physically protect the Messiah once he was born by having him transported to egypt… The devil was on the move every chance he got. It was a carefully planned operation, in which God saved the fate of the human race… Why would God take chances on something so important?

You dont really think that the living conditions of Jesus were of any importance do you? Especially since His primary mission was to be hung upon the crucifix till death, only to enter into hell and destroy satans grip on mankind.

No I dont think God was concearned with Jesus having a “normal” life… Actually His life was quite extraordinary.

The living conditions were not real important. I was just showing that if God will put his Son in less then honorable conditions why wouldn’t he put Him in person with sin.

By normal I mean being born the same way we were born with the exception of no intercourse to a woman who was born with sin.

The Mary was incapable of sin from within seems hard to swallow. The direct contact with Satan is also. I do agree that God protected Jesus after he was born. And then at the age of 12 so inbetween we have no idea what Jesus was like and the same after the age of 12 intil he was 33 after he was baptized he was tempted by Satan. If God never wanted to take the chance why would he now.

The Adam and Eve thing I will have to do some thinking on that its compelling.

 

[rev_kevin]

Jesus lived a life of Poverty, chastity, and obedience to the Father.

True but the chastity part there is evidence that he may not have been. Although sketchy at this point there is still evidence. But thats for another thread.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

To answer your second question. Even Jesus’ bloodline was not pure and sinless. To say that you would have to say they are God which they are not. They were born with sin so its impossable to be sinless and if you are born with sin you can not be pure. Now Jesus is God correct and he is without sin correct. So if you say Mary was born without sin then she would be like God who is and always was sinless correct.

I’m saying, He was not conceived by a sinful Father. Why then, must His Mother be sinful? After all, she held Him in her womb for nine months.

 

[TEPO]

What if Mary was a sinner and liked to drink alot of wine? She could have gotten drunk and passed out… Jesus would have been in grave danger.

Jesus was half human and half divine, so you figure out what could have happened if the human side of Jesus was tweaked… Even if only in his upbringing…

I believe the Catholic Churches stance that Mary was 100% sin free.

 

[rev_kevin]

What if Mary was a sinner and liked to drink alot of wine? She could have gotten drunk and passed out… Jesus would have been in grave danger.

Jesus was half human and half divine, so you figure out what could have happened if the human side of Jesus was tweaked… Even if only in his upbringing…

I believe the Catholic Churches stance that Mary was 100% sin free.

Come on now the drinking bit is pushing is a little.
Now if Mary did drink alot of wine and got drunk and passed out wouldn’t God protect him like you said he protected him from conception leaving to Egypt. So it wouldn’t make a difference, God would protect him right.
Do you know something about his upbringing that the Bible never talked about.

 

[rev_kevin]

I’m saying, He was not conceived by a sinful Father. Why then, must His Mother be sinful? After all, she held Him in her womb for nine months.

You did not answer correctly. If God is Jesus and without sin and Mary was born without sin like God and Jesus is then wouldn’t she be like God or a god since they are sinless and pure.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

You did not answer correctly. If God is Jesus and without sin and Mary was born without sin like God and Jesus is then wouldn’t she be like God or a god since they are sinless and pure.

Who said if you are sinless and pure you are God? Remember, as a Catholic, I believe it is God who made Mary without sin. He chose to - is it such a bad thing if He did it?

Besides, we all must strive to be sinless and pure to get to Heaven. What we are lacking, God already takes care of.

 

[TEPO]

Come on now the drinking bit is pushing is a little.
Now if Mary did drink alot of wine and got drunk and passed out wouldn’t God protect him like you said he protected him from conception leaving to Egypt. So it wouldn’t make a difference, God would protect him right…

I’m just saying, why is it harder to believe that God would simply make Mary sinless for Jesus’ protection, as the Church has said for a thousand years than to believe that God would send an angel to protect ?

Either way, the fact is Jesus had to be protected. And if God made Mary sinless (as the church has always said) it takes nothing away from Jesus. Jesus is God regardless, Mary is at a lower level than Jesus -the Catholic Church understands this.

Do you know something about his upbringing that the Bible never talked about.

No… Its just that things peice together like a puzzle --and it makes good sense. To deny what the catholic church says only because the church says it, is the problem of “protestantism”… This is what protestants do. They protest the teachings of the Catholic church.

 

[TEPO]

I believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, but protestants have only been working against the catholic church for the last 500 years… Before that, the Catholic Church was the only Christian denomination… Right?

So Luther had a problem with Mary, and tweaked Christianity for good. (just recently)

 

[rev_kevin]

Who said if you are sinless and pure you are God? Remember, as a Catholic, I believe it is God who made Mary without sin. He chose to - is it such a bad thing if He did it?

Besides, we all must strive to be sinless and pure to get to Heaven. What we are lacking, God already takes care of.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, there is “none” righteous, no, “not one.”
Romans 3:23 For “all” have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon "all’ men. for “all” have sinned.

Now since Mary was born without sin because she was to be the mother of Jesus who was born without sin and so that sin would not contaminate Jesus. Now was Mary’s mother born without sin also. If not why would she not. Mary was born without sin because Jesus could not be contaminated with the sin so the same should go for Mary, wouldn’t the sin of Mary’s mother contaminate her like it would Jesus.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Romans 3:10 As it is written, there is “none” righteous, no, “not one.”

As I said before:

Paul was quoting Psalm 14 (“It is written”), which is referring to atheists. In the book of Luke, there are at least 3 people in the New Testament who are righteous – Simeon (Luke 2), Elizabeth, and Zechariah (Luke 1). The angel Gabriel called Mary “full of grace” before she conceived Jesus in her womb (Luke 1:28) – that must make her righteous in the eyes of God, to be “full of grace”. And besides, we had all better be righteous, or we won’t make it into heaven (Matthew 5:20).

Romans 3:23 For “all” have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

What about babies or children before the age of reason? Have they sinned as well? How about the mentally disabled?

Now since Mary was born without sin because she was to be the mother of Jesus who was born without sin and so that sin would not contaminate Jesus. Now was Mary’s mother born without sin also. If not why would she not. Mary was born without sin because Jesus could not be contaminated with the sin so the same should go for Mary, wouldn’t the sin of Mary’s mother contaminate her like it would Jesus.

Could you please rephrase that whole paragraph so that it makes better sense? And please use some question marks where they are needed. Thank you.

 

[rev_kevin]

As I said before:

Paul was quoting Psalm 14 (“It is written”), which is referring to atheists. In the book of Luke, there are at least 3 people in the New Testament who are righteous – Simeon (Luke 2), Elizabeth, and Zechariah (Luke 1). The angel Gabriel called Mary “full of grace” before she conceived Jesus in her womb (Luke 1:28) – that must make her righteous in the eyes of God, to be “full of grace”. And besides, we had all better be righteous, or we won’t make it into heaven (Matthew 5:20).

What about babies or children before the age of reason? Have they sinned as well? How about the mentally disabled?

Could you please rephrase that whole paragraph so that it makes better sense? And please use some question marks where they are needed. Thank you.

What is with you and this atheists thing with me???

The righteous and full of grace we already discussed, look it up.

The infants and children. You should know that all are born with original sin, if not then Mary wouldn’t have to be granted that special favior now would she???

Mentally disabled, how disabled, there are those who have a learning disability which in concered a mental disability. If you would please give a better meaning of what you mean.

Was Mary’s mother born with sin???
If so why???
If Jesus was to be born from a sinless women so he would not have sin, then Mary should also be born from a woman who is without sin for the same reasons Jesus was.

Did I do better, I gave you the question marks.

 

[Indyann]

What is with you and this atheists thing with me???

The righteous and full of grace we already discussed, look it up.

The infants and children. You should know that all are born with original sin, if not then Mary wouldn’t have to be granted that special favior now would she???

Mentally disabled, how disabled, there are those who have a learning disability which in concered a mental disability. If you would please give a better meaning of what you mean.

Was Mary’s mother born with sin???
If so why???
If Jesus was to be born from a sinless women so he would not have sin, then Mary should also be born from a woman who is without sin for the same reasons Jesus was.

Did I do better, I gave you the question marks.

You are not really a reverand, are you? You must certainly be a professional tap dancer. Quite an obnoxious one, IMHO.

 

[Lapey]

Romans 3:10 As it is written, there is “none” righteous, no, “not one.”
Romans 3:23 For “all” have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon "all’ men. for “all” have sinned.

Now since Mary was born without sin because she was to be the mother of Jesus who was born without sin and so that sin would not contaminate Jesus. Now was Mary’s mother born without sin also. If not why would she not. Mary was born without sin because Jesus could not be contaminated with the sin so the same should go for Mary, wouldn’t the sin of Mary’s mother contaminate her like it would Jesus.

Ok Rev,
I have to side with you on this point, I wasn’t to fond of that decription earlier either.

But I must confess that I believe what my Church teaches, because of the types of writtings that caused you to ponder a little while ago. The traditions, written and oral and my compass to Christ. Scripture and tradition lead me to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The mass used to be such a mondain thing for me, devotion to the Blessed Mother Mary was useless, but as I learn about my faith and my relationship with Christ Jesus grows ever so closer, I understand the reasons now. I long for the mass and the Eucharist now because Christ is there. His Mother brings me to Him, not to her.

Sorry, I got carried away. We had a rough night in my house tonight. We are struggleing with our daughter, 15, who wants a relationship with a 19 year old and we just will not sanction the idea, so we had drama. She’s sleeping now, my wife is in bed crying and I am here talking to you people. I guess I am the sick one…lol

Well anyway, hang in there Rev and know that I respect you much for putting up with us Catlicks! I have to say though, I had never been called a vulture before.

 

[rev_kevin]

I’m just saying, why is it harder to believe that God would simply make Mary sinless for Jesus’ protection, as the Church has said for a thousand years than to believe that God would send an angel to protect ?

Either way, the fact is Jesus had to be protected. And if God made Mary sinless (as the church has always said) it takes nothing away from Jesus. Jesus is God regardless, Mary is at a lower level than Jesus -the Catholic Church understands this.

No… Its just that things peice together like a puzzle --and it makes good sense. To deny what the catholic church says only because the church says it, is the problem of “protestantism”… This is what protestants do. They protest the teachings of the Catholic church.

If God was going to protect Jesus anyway, why would Mary have to be sinless. God is protecting him from sin.

Because “all” have sinned. It don’t say “all except.”

You didn’t answer the question, what do you know about Jesus’ upbringing that the Bible never say?

Now we are going to resort to protestants have a problem because they don’t believe the samething the Catholics believe. Them mean horrable protestants, how dare they not believe the same thing we Catholics believe. How dare they have a mind of their own. How dare they see things differently then us. The church should do something about the mean horrable protestants. I know lets have that inquisition thing again. That will teach them not to believe the same thing.

 

[Lapey]

If God was going to protect Jesus anyway, why would Mary have to be sinless. God is protecting him from sin.

Because “all” have sinned. It don’t say “all except.”

You didn’t answer the question, what do you know about Jesus’ upbringing that the Bible never say?

Now we are going to resort to protestants have a problem because they don’t believe the samething the Catholics believe. Them mean horrable protestants, how dare they not believe the same thing we Catholics believe. How dare they have a mind of their own. How dare they see things differently then us. The church should do something about the mean horrable protestants. I know lets have that inquisition thing again. That will teach them not to believe the same thing.

Now that isn’t very charitable now is it?

 

[rev_kevin]

Ok Rev,
I have to side with you on this point, I wasn’t to fond of that decription earlier either.

But I must confess that I believe what my Church teaches, because of the types of writtings that caused you to ponder a little while ago. The traditions, written and oral and my compass to Christ. Scripture and tradition lead me to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The mass used to be such a mondain thing for me, devotion to the Blessed Mother Mary was useless, but as I learn about my faith and my relationship with Christ Jesus grows ever so closer, I understand the reasons now. I long for the mass and the Eucharist now because Christ is there. His Mother brings me to Him, not to her.

Sorry, I got carried away. We had a rough night in my house tonight. We are struggleing with our daughter, 15, who wants a relationship with a 19 year old and we just will not sanction the idea, so we had drama. She’s sleeping now, my wife is in bed crying and I am here talking to you people. I guess I am the sick one…lol

Well anyway, hang in there Rev and know that I respect you much for putting up with us Catlicks! I have to say though, I had never been called a vulture before.

I understand about 15 year olds my son will be 15 on the 29 of this month and I raised my 3 daughters myself. I understand the house problems. My wife forgot about a traffic ticket and guess where she is till Christmas. But thanks for understanding.

 

[rev_kevin]

Now that isn’t very charitable now is it?

I know.

 

[TEPO]

Romans 3:10 As it is written, there is “none” righteous, no, “not one.”
Romans 3:23 For “all” have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon "all’ men. for “all” have sinned…

So Jesus is not “righteous”. - Jesus has “come short of the glory of God”? - Jesus has sinned? Could these verses refer to the pre-Jesus days?

Now since Mary was born without sin because she was to be the mother of Jesus who was born without sin and so that sin would not contaminate Jesus. .

Actually Mary was still partially contaminated… Mary could never escape the “temporal penalties” of Adam… Which means that Mary still felt: sorrow, bodily infirmities, and Death. In other words unlike Eves original state, Mary felt the pains of childbirth. Mary felt sorrow and pain…

Now was Mary’s mother born without sin also. If not why would she not. Mary was born without sin because Jesus could not be contaminated with the sin so the same should go for Mary, wouldn’t the sin of Mary’s mother contaminate her like it would Jesus.

Nope… Definantly not. God is able to stop the original sin right at Mary, thus protecting the Saviour -Jesus Christ. Its all about Jesus not Mary, or anyone else. Jesus is the chosen Saviour, Mary was simply his sinless mother. She is great though, but Jesus is God.

 

[TEPO]

True but the chastity part there is evidence that he may not have been. Although sketchy at this point there is still evidence. But thats for another thread.

Now Jesus is a sinner? What next?