Sat (Dec 12) Mass readings (Mary was saved before conception?)

[TEPO]

If God was going to protect Jesus anyway, why would Mary have to be sinless. God is protecting him from sin…

To be the best mother to the PERFECT person.

Because “all” have sinned. It don’t say “all except.”.

So you think Jesus is a sinner too… Oh brother.

You didn’t answer the question, what do you know about Jesus’ upbringing that the Bible never say?.

I dont claim to know anything about Jesus’ upbringing, other than he had a great set of parents. They obviously did as God expected. The Church has been a success.

Now we are going to resort to protestants have a problem because they don’t believe the samething the Catholics believe. Them mean horrable protestants, how dare they not believe the same thing we Catholics believe. How dare they have a mind of their own. How dare they see things differently then us. The church should do something about the mean horrable protestants. I know lets have that inquisition thing again. That will teach them not to believe the same thing.

I understand your frustrations… It is hard to hear something that you have trained yourself to reject. I dont dislike protestants because I know it is very hard to be a catholic. We have to sacrifice alot if we want to be in good standing. It is the farthest you can go in getting close to God.

 

[Justy90]

its not arrogant… you see evil where it does not exist…

and if you reject Christ’s Church you reject Him…/

 

[rev_kevin]

So Jesus is not “righteous”. - Jesus has “come short of the glory of God”? - Jesus has sinned? Could these verses refer to the pre-Jesus days?

Actually Mary was still partially contaminated… Mary could never escape the “temporal penalties” of Adam… Which means that Mary still felt: sorrow, bodily infirmities, and Death. In other words unlike Eves original state, Mary felt the pains of childbirth. Mary felt sorrow and pain…

Nope… Definantly not. God is able to stop the original sin right at Mary, thus protecting the Saviour -Jesus Christ. Its all about Jesus not Mary, or anyone else. Jesus is the chosen Saviour, Mary was simply his sinless mother. She is great though, but Jesus is God.

Look lets stop the stupidity about Jesus being a sinner. I know just as well as you know he was without sin. So stop being a smart allic! Now wasn’t Mary born in the pre-Jesus days? So using your words she would have sin.

So Eve didn’t feel paid when she had her children. I didn’t know Cane and Able were born before she ate the forbiden fruit. So if Mary was partially contaminated how can she be pure?

So Mary was born to a sinner and was not contaminated with sin. Now God didn’t give Mary sin even though she was born to a sinner. Why couldn’t God do the same for Jesus, you know being born to a sinner but not having sin like what he did for Mary?

 

[rev_kevin]

Now Jesus is a sinner? What next?

So when the Bible said be fruitful and multiply its telling us to sin. When did this become sin. But like I said this is for another thread.

 

[GraceDK]

You don’t know me so let me tell you. I was raised Catholic, baptized Catholic, made my first Holy Communion, Confermed, the hole 10 yards, went to seminary to be a priest for a year. Now I’m a non-denoinational preacher. So don’t tell me I can’t say the same when I have lived it and still living it.

You may think its not arrogant but I do, like it or not.

Rev Kevin.
I was enjoying your posts and thought you made good statements, so good I wanted to hear your story in all sincerety and ponder your points… until this post, where you greatly disappoint me.
On first page you say you are totally surprised there is a Catholic belief called the immaculate conception.
Then you say you were such a serious Catholic that you even went to seminary to become a priest.
Are you JOKING?

A Catholic who does not know about the immaculate conception… sorry, but he never even started learning about his faith. You might have gone to Sunday school… dont confuse it with “the whole 10 yards”

Peace.
A sister in Christ, once Lutheran, now Catholic.

Ps. The immaculate conception is nowhere found explicitly in Scripture. I have found this doctrine very hard to swallow. I have decided to accept it because pretty much everything else in the Catholic Church makes sense to me, and I see the Catholic Chuch as the only Chuch that truly stands against the winds of the times as a rock-solid castle, albeit it sometimes looks like a ruin… Jesus called me to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. He then showed me where that is possible…

 

[rev_kevin]

Rev Kevin.
I was enjoying your posts and thought you made good statements, so good I wanted to hear your story in all sincerety and ponder your points… until this post, where you greatly disappoint me.
On first page you say you are totally surprised there is a Catholic belief called the immaculate conception.
Then you say you were such a serious Catholic that you even went to seminary to become a priest.
Are you JOKING?

A Catholic who does not know about the immaculate conception… sorry, but he never even started learning about his faith. You might have gone to Sunday school… dont confuse it with “the whole 10 yards”

Peace.
A sister in Christ, once Lutheran, now Catholic.

Ps. The immaculate conception is nowhere found explicitly in Scripture. I have found this doctrine very hard to swallow. I have decided to accept it because pretty much everything else in the Catholic Church makes sense to me, and I see the Catholic Chuch as the only Chuch that truly stands against the winds of the times as a rock-solid castle, albeit it sometimes looks like a ruin… Jesus called me to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. He then showed me where that is possible…

I’m surprised that someone can believe that. That’s what I’m suprised about.

If you noticed I didn’t stay or become a priest because as I started thinking about the teachings the seemed strange and unbelievable to me. Like the immaculate conception.
So if I don’t believe in what is being taught, I thought it would be best if I don’t become a priest. So I’m not JOKING.

I don’t believe I said I don’t know about it. I said I don’t believe it and then questioned people about it to see what they believed. See the difference. Now your sarcasm about the “whole 10 yards and confusing it with Sunday School” I know the difference thank you. Now in your last statement you say that found the immaculate conception hard to swallow but you decided to accept is because pretty much of the Catholic church makes sence to you. You accept something even though you really find this doctrine very hard to swollow. At least I had the good sence to get out of something when I didn’t believe in it anymore. But you choose to stay knowing you don’t agree with what the Catholic doctrine says. A Catholic is to agree with all doctrine or they are going against the church and God. And you say I or he never started to learn about his faith. I see you learned and don’t agree, but you accept something you don’t agree with. Who is the one who needs to learn his/her faith?

 

[elvisman]

I’m surprised that someone can believe that. That’s what I’m suprised about.

If you noticed I didn’t stay or become a priest because as I started thinking about the teachings the seemed strange and unbelievable to me. Like the immaculate conception.
So if I don’t believe in what is being taught, I thought it would be best if I don’t become a priest. So I’m not JOKING.

I don’t believe I said I don’t know about it. I said I don’t believe it and then questioned people about it to see what they believed. See the difference. Now your sarcasm about the “whole 10 yards and confusing it with Sunday School” I know the difference thank you. Now in your last statement you say that found the immaculate conception hard to swallow but you decided to accept is because pretty much of the Catholic church makes sence to you. You accept something even though you really find this doctrine very hard to swollow. At least I had the good sence to get out of something when I didn’t believe in it anymore. But you choose to stay knowing you don’t agree with what the Catholic doctrine says. A Catholic is to agree with all doctrine or they are going against the church and God. And you say I or he never started to learn about his faith. I see you learned and don’t agree, but you accept something you don’t agree with. Who is the one who needs to learn his/her faith?

If you’re going to frequent a debate site - you really need to shed your thin skin.
Most of your posts are so defensive, your points get lost in the rant.

As for the Immaculate Conception not being explicitly taught in Scripture - that may be so - but it IS implicitly taught.

**If you expect ALL Christian beliefs to be explicitly taught in Scripture - YOU have to show the reat of us WHERE it says that Scripture alone is our teacher. Show me WHERE the passage ins in Scripture that says everything must be explicitly taught within the pages of the Bible. **

When you can do that - you’ll have a leg to stand on - whereas, right now - you don’t.

 

[rev_kevin]

If you’re going to frequent a debate site - you really need to shed your thin skin.
**Most **of your posts are so defensive, your points get lost in the rant.

As for the Immaculate Conception not being explicitly taught in Scripture - that may be so - but it IS implicitly taught.

If you expect ALL Christian beliefs to be explicitly taught in Scripture - YOU have to show the reat of us WHERE it says that Scripture alone is our teacher. Show me WHERE the passage ins in Scripture that says everything must be explicitly taught within the pages of the Bible.

When you can do that - you’ll have a leg to stand on - whereas, right now - you don’t.

Look you have a problem I am through with you and will not answer any question from you. I guess you have a hard time reading what I said about you. Can’t you get the hint.

 

[elvisman]

Ps. The immaculate conception is nowhere found explicitly in Scripture. I have found this doctrine very hard to swallow. I have decided to accept it because pretty much everything else in the Catholic Church makes sense to me, and I see the Catholic Chuch as the only Chuch that truly stands against the winds of the times as a rock-solid castle, albeit it sometimes looks like a ruin… Jesus called me to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. He then showed me where that is possible…

Grace -
The Immaculate Conception IS implicitly taught in Scripture. But, like other Christian doctrines such as the Holy Trinity - it is not explicitly taught.

**Whereas the symbols of God’s word were contained in the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament, Mary actually carried God himself - the Word - in her womb in the New Testament. And, whereas the Old Testament Ark had to be made of pure materials and blessed and undefiled, how much more pure and undefiled would the vessel that actually carried God have to be? **
**Non-Catholics say that it doesn’t matter who gave birth to Jesus. They say that Jesus could have been born from anybody and still been the Messiah - he could have even been born of a harlot. **

Yes, Jesus could have been born of a harlot – but in order to fulfill all righteousness, his coming had to be more glorious than the Old Testament type. He chose Mary out of all of the women in history to be his mother.
New Testament fulfillments of types found in the Old Testament are more glorious and perfect than the type itself. This rule of Scripture is without exception.

Here are a few somparison texts that show Mary’s role as Ark of the New Covenant (Jesus):
"Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
"Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me" (Luke 1:43)

When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
When Mary came into Elizabeth’s presence carrying the word of God, the baby leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb (Lk 2 38)

The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth’s house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Lk. 1:56)

Furthermore - the teaching against Mary’s Immaculate Conception only came about in the last couple of hundred years. The fact is that this was taught by the Early Church and believed by many of the Protestant Reformers. It was only in *later *years that Protestant splinter groups wanted to distance themselves from the Church by changing historic Christian teachings.

Hope this helps.

 

[elvisman]

Look you have a problem I am through with you and will not answer any question from you. I guess you have a hard time reading what I said about you. Can’t you get the hint.

Again with no comeback.

The only problem i have is that I won’t allow anti-Catholics to spread their venom - without a rebuttal and you want to be able to come here do that.
Not on MY watch.**

Again - if you can’t handle debate - you really shouldn’t be on debate sites.

 

[rev_kevin]

again with no comeback.

the only** problem i have is that i won’t allow anti-catholics to spread their venom - without a rebuttal and you want to be able to come here do that.
Not on my watch.

again - if you can’t handle debate - you really shouldn’t be on debate sites.

once again leave me out of your conversation. You don’t like me and i don’t like you, so its best that we not discuss anything. You want to continue to talk to me or that is what you may call it but i do not have to talk or discuss anything with you reguardless what site i’m on. You have no authority to tell me or anyone to stay off a site.
Good day!!!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

The righteous and full of grace we already discussed, look it up.

Then why did you quote that verse?

The infants and children. You should know that all are born with original sin, if not then Mary wouldn’t have to be granted that special favior now would she???

Mentally disabled, how disabled, there are those who have a learning disability which in concered a mental disability. If you would please give a better meaning of what you mean.

My point is Paul did not mean everyone. Sure, he meant most of us, but use your imagination: when Jesus tells the rich man to give all he has away and follow Him, do you think He meant walk around naked without a penny to his name?

Was Mary’s mother born with sin???
If so why???
If Jesus was to be born from a sinless women so he would not have sin, then Mary should also be born from a woman who is without sin for the same reasons Jesus was.

Where are you trying to get with this?? St. Anne wasn’t supposed to give birth to Jesus! Mary was.

Did I do better, I gave you the question marks.

Very good - But do not get annoying with it.

 

[rev_kevin]

Then why did you quote that verse?

My point is Paul did not mean everyone. Sure, he meant most of us, but use your imagination: when Jesus tells the rich man to give all he has away and follow Him, do you think He meant walk around naked without a penny to his name?

Where are you trying to get with this?? St. Anne wasn’t supposed to give birth to Jesus! Mary was.

Very good - But do not get annoying with it.

What does your answer have to do with infants, children and the mental disabled?
I don’t see the connection. Maybe you can help me see what you mean.

If Paul didn’t mean everyone than why say “all” and not “some?”
Please don’t ask me to use my imagination on this one, I don’t like what I’m seeing.
No I don’t think Jesus meant to walk around naked without a penny but to keep what is necessary for you to survive.

I guess what I don’t understand is why go through all this when Jesus was without sin in the first place. Now wouldn’t a sinless person give birth to a sinless person who would give birth to a sinless person who would give birth to a sinless person and so on down the line
Wouldn’t Mary’s mothers, mothers, mothers, mothers, mothers and so on would have to be without sin inorder for Mary to be without sin.

Sorry for being annoying. :imsorry:

 

[TEPO]

So when the Bible said be fruitful and multiply its telling us to sin. When did this become sin. But like I said this is for another thread.

Very simple… Nowhere in the Bible, or in Church teaching was Jesus ever married. Therefore, if he were to have intercourse (I am assuming this is what you meant when you said: – “the chastity part there is evidence that he may not have been”—) it would have been out of wedlock and a mortal sin.

You protestants must be cautious of the “new evidence” that the athiests make up to destroy the Church. Catholics have no tolerance for these lies, and neither should you.

 

[rev_kevin]

Very simple… Nowhere in the Bible, or in Church teaching was Jesus ever married. Therefore, if he were to have intercourse (I am assuming this is what you meant when you said: – “the chastity part there is evidence that he may not have been”—) it would have been out of wedlock and a mortal sin.

You protestants must be cautious of the “new evidence” that the athiests make up to destroy the Church. Catholics have no tolerance for these lies, and neither should you.

I am being caustious like I said the evidence is sketchy. Like I said this is something that needs its own thread. But you are right.

 

[TEPO]

Look lets stop the stupidity about Jesus being a sinner. I know just as well as you know he was without sin. So stop being a smart allic! Now wasn’t Mary born in the pre-Jesus days? So using your words she would have sin.

Please do not quote my words as official Catholic teaching unless I give you a reference. When I say “pre-Jesus days” I just mean the time before the PROCESS of bringing Jesus into the world.

So Eve didn’t feel paid when she had her children. I didn’t know Cane and Able were born before she ate the forbiden fruit. So if Mary was partially contaminated how can she be pure?

First of all, I did NOT say that “Eve did’nt feel pain when she had her children”. You are saying that !!! What I am saying is that Eve would not have felt pain in her original state, if she had not committed original sin… That is the Catholic position, if you need a reference, I’ll gladly get it upon your request.

I am now second guessing however whether or not MARY felt the pains of childbirth. I myself thought she did, but another source on the internet says she did not.
I dont know anymore… ----Anyone else know?------ kpeople:

So Mary was born to a sinner and was not contaminated with sin. Now God didn’t give Mary sin even though she was born to a sinner. Why couldn’t God do the same for Jesus, you know being born to a sinner but not having sin like what he did for Mary?

It is not a matter of contamination. Perhaps the reason God made Mary sinless, was so that she would be more compatible with Jesus? Maybe so she could raise him properly, in a sin-free environment? Maybe so he could live within the woumb? Catholic teaching does not attempt to go into the reasoning of God… I dont either, I only show possibilities. I am just shedding light -not claiming to know the answers.

But I do agree with Catholic teaching.

 

[TEPO]

Maybe Jesus needed the BLOOD of a sin-free woman in the woumb? The reason I make this assumption is because this is the reason that Catholics eat the Body and Blood of Jesus… Because when you consume a persons blood, you take in a part of their soul…

Jesus wanted us to eat His flesh, and drink his blood so he could live in us.

So maybe Jesus needed to be born by sin-free blood so that his blood would be pure when we drink it…??? Maybe -I said MAYBE !

(but then this goes back to the contamination thing again… So I dont know… Probably NOT)

 

[rev_kevin]

You are not really a reverand, are you? You must certainly be a professional tap dancer. Quite an obnoxious one, IMHO.

Yep sure am a reverend. Can’t dance I have parkinsons and legs don’t work real good but thanks for the tap dancer profession complement. Now am I obnoxious because I question things or is it that I don’t believe the same thing you believe?

Oh this man or so called reverend is, I mean, just so obnoxious that, you know, I can’t believe how obnoxious he is. I can’t stand obnoxious people, its like they want to make me, oh you know, barf. I think I’ll let him know how I feel but I’ll let him know that is my IMHO you know to be nice, because I don’t want to be like him and obnoxious. Oh just the tought of me bing like that, ya know, just makes me want to, oh I guess, shiver.

Now by your name I would guess, but its only a guess, that you are from Indiana since that is where the Indy 500 is and Indyann is a close spelling to Indiana. But is just a guess.

 

[elvisman]

once again leave me out of your conversation. You don’t like me and i don’t like you, so its best that we not discuss anything. You want to continue to talk to me or that is what you may call it but i do not have to talk or discuss anything with you reguardless what site i’m on. You have no authority to tell me or anyone to stay off a site.
Good day!!!

**I don’t dislike you - I don’t even know you.
From what I can tell, though - you have some real anger issues.
I’ll pray for you, friend.

 

[TEPO]

I was actually born in Indiana… Isnt that a coincidence?