JL: Because “all” would be the norm, there are always exceptions. If not, “ALL,” would MEAN not even ONE human being born of woman would be born without original sin. Are you telling us Christ didn’t come in the FLESH and dwell among us as a MAN? Of course he did, so we can see “ALL” does not MEAN ALL human beings, without exception, does it? In the MAN Jesus Christ we see ONE exception to the “ALL”. If there is ONE EXCEPTION Paul could not have meant ALL without exception, could he?If Paul didn’t mean everyone than why say “all” and not “some?”
JL: No, If Mary and Joseph had children of their own, those children would not have been born without sin. Because Joseph was conceived in original sin.Now wouldn’t a sinless person give birth to a sinless person who would give birth to a sinless person who would give birth to a sinless person and so on down the line
JL: No because Mary was PRESERVED from original sin by the action of God and merits of Jesus Christ, her Savior. God promised in [Gn3:15 And I will put ENMITY between THEE AND THE WOMAN and between THY SEED AND HER SEED it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel]Wouldn’t Mary’s mothers, mothers, mothers, mothers, mothers and so on would have to be without sin inorder for Mary to be without sin. Sorry for being annoying. :imsorry:
JL: God could have done whatever he wanted and he did. God did not become present in the ark of the covenant till it was sanctified. The Holy Spirit does not indwell Christians before HE washes away their sins, by water and the Spirit.I guess what I don’t understand is why go through all this when Jesus was without sin in the first place.
Well I was frustrated out of 88 posts I have been the subject 67 times. Ya it seemes like a bunch of, I won’t say the word because you can’t speak your mind here or feel frustrated or they remove it, hitting me one right after another and it still continues to the present time and I need to take it with a grain of salt.As a matter of fact, I did read most of the thread you directed me to. From what I read, it seemed to be a very respectful discussion. NO one was called a vulture or any other name.
I am not sure if it was in this thread, or another to which you had posted, but it is now removed.(and for good reason, too).
But when I read it I thought to myself "there is no way this man is a “rev”.
If I were a guest in someone’s house and they disrespected my religion, I would leave.
That’s why I do not go to non-Catholic sites to discuss religion.
I may go there to read and figure out exactly what they believe, but I certainly would never go there and tell them they are wrong.
And insinuating that Christ was not chaste is an insult to not only Catholics, but should be an insult to all Christianity.
And what does this have to do with what I wrote?***Jesus etablshed ONE Church… ONE…
all those that came after 1521 are man-made…***
I happy you found her helpful, I won’t say anything against it..
**there have been times in my life when i felt partticuarly attacked by the devil and only Mary seemed to… do what i needed to have done (fight impurity, etc…)… Long story and hard to explain but true nonetheless… **
Jesus is God and God is without sin. Altough he came in human form he is still God who is without sin.JL: Because “all” would be the norm, there are always exceptions. If not, “ALL,” would MEAN not even ONE human being born of woman would be born without original sin. Are you telling us Christ didn’t come in the FLESH and dwell among us as a MAN? Of course he did, so we can see “ALL” does not MEAN ALL human beings, without exception, does it? In the MAN Jesus Christ we see ONE exception to the “ALL”. If there is ONE EXCEPTION Paul could not have meant ALL without exception, could he?
We also see other exceptions, not of immaculate conceptions but of being BORN WITHOUT SIN. Those who were SANCTIFIED in the womb, both Jeremiah, [Jer1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and BEFORE THOU CAMEST forth OUT OF THE WOMB I SANCTIFIED THEE, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.]
Then there is John the Baptist, [Lk1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name JOHN. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and HE SHALL BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, even FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB.]
[The soul of the precursor was not preserved immaculate at its union with the body, but was sanctified either shortly after conception from a previous state of sin, or through the presence of Jesus at the Visitation.
Again it is remarked that a peculiar privilege was granted to the prophet Jeremiah and to St. John the Baptist. They were sanctified in their mother’s womb, because by their preaching they had a special share in the work of preparing the way for Christ.] (Catholic Encyclopedia) newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm Move down to, The conception of John the Baptist. For Jeremiah moved down to, Proof from reason.
JL: No, If Mary and Joseph had children of their own, those children would not have been born without sin. Because Joseph was conceived in original sin.
JL: No because Mary was PRESERVED from original sin by the action of God and merits of Jesus Christ, her Savior. God promised in [Gn3:15 And I will put ENMITY between THEE AND THE WOMAN and between THY SEED AND HER SEED it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel]
Heard all this already and it still hasn’t changed my mind. Hearing time after time won’t do it eather.JL: God could have done whatever he wanted and he did. God did not become present in the ark of the covenant till it was sanctified. The Holy Spirit does not indwell Christians before HE washes away their sins, by water and the Spirit.
We see in [Lk1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art HIGHLY FAVOURED, the Lord IS with THEE: blessed art thou among women.]
Mary was already sanctified, full of GRACE, before the angel appeared.
We see in [Gn3:15 And I will put ENMITY between THEE AND THE WOMAN and between THY SEED AND HER SEED it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel] Mary was NEVER the seed of Satan, she was ALWAYS at enmity with Satan from her conception. God said it, God promised it, God did it.
Romans 8:6 tells us what ENMITY means, [ROM 8:6 For to be carnally minded IS DEATH but to be SPIRITUALLY MINDED IS LIFE and peace 7 Because the CARNAL MIND IS ENMITY against God] So to be carnal minded is to be without grace, one is spiritually dead, Mary was highly favoured or full of grace, at enmity against Satan, from her conception, as God promised I WILL PUT ENMITY between her and Satan, even before the HER seed was conceived.
[Hb9:4 … the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, WHEREIN WAS the golden pot that had MANNA, and AARON’S ROD that budded, and the TABLES OF THE CONVENANT;]
Mary the ark of the new covenant, wherein was; the MANNA= CHRIST, TRUE BREAD OF LIFE, AARON’S ROD=CHRIST, TRUE HIGH PRIEST, TEN COMMANDMENTS=CHRIST, TRUE WORD OF GOD.
[Ex25:8 And let them MAKE ME A SANCTUARY; THAT I MAY DWELL AMONG THEM. 9ACCORDING TO ALL that I SHEW THEE, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. 10 Have them MAKE A CHEST OF ACACIA WOOD—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. 11 OVERLAY IT WITH PURE GOLD, BOTH INSIDE AND OUT, and make a gold molding around it. Ex25:40 See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.]
If the Lord wanted the ark of the old covenant, made by hands, made to exact pattern and specific detail, from acacia wood and covered inside and out with PURE GOLD, that he may dwell among us. How much more would he cover the flesh, body and soul, of the living ark of the new covenant, not made by hands, with the purity of the Holy Spirit inside and out, that he may dwell among us. Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities.
2 MCABS 2:5 And when Jeremy came thither he found an hollow cave wherein he laid the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door 6 And some of those that followed him came to mark the way but they could not find it 7 Which when Jeremy perceived he blamed them saying As for THAT PLACE IT SHALL BE UNKNOWN UNTILL THE TIME THAT GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE again TOGETHER AND RECEIVE THEM UNTO MERCY. 8 THEN SHALL THE LORD SHEW THEM THESE THINGS AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL APPEAR AND THE CLOUD ALSO as it was shewed under Moses and as when Solomon desired that the place might be honourably sanctified
EX 40:34 Then** a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle** 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle
LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God
2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims
LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **
2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God
2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king
David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart
LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **
2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts
LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord
2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household
LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house
You saidWell I was frustrated out of 88 posts I have been the subject 67 times. Ya it seemes like a bunch of, I won’t say the word because you can’t speak your mind here or feel frustrated or they remove it, hitting me one right after another and it still continues to the present time and I need to take it with a grain of salt.
Now a Reverend is not allowed to be human, they have to be hollier the thou, they can’t speak their mind, they have to put on a fake smile all the time, they have to be above anger, they have to be perfect. Sorry I don’t put on fakeness to anyone, to do that one would be a hypocrite, someone who pretends to be something they are not.
Now I will agree that the, I can’t say the word, was over the line, but that is how I felt, and I appoligize.
So you are telling me to leave.
Do you know how many times we are told we are wrong by Catholics. So what are we to do say oh ya everything you say is true, and go against our beliefs. No way.
I did not isinuate that I said there is evidence although sketchy. So now you can’t say what you have seen, read, heard or found out. It was just information on what is being said so I thought I would share it, but I quess thats wrong. I do not believe he has had relations with women. I just said there is evidence that says he has. I think you are reading too much into it.
You are right. Hearing about something will not change anyone’s mind. Thinking about it, processing the information and praying for understanding may not change your mind,but at least you may have a better understanding of where Catholics are coming from.Heard all this already and it still hasn’t changed my mind. Hearing time after time won’t do it eather.
JL: Yes I know you have seen it at lest four times.Heard all this already and it still hasn’t changed my mind. Hearing time after time won’t do it eather.
JL: Jesus didn’t come IN HUMAN FORM he BECAME a human being, remember the Word was MADE flesh. So that makes ONE human, born without sin, exception to “ALL”.Jesus is God and God is without sin. Altough he came in human form he is still God who is without sin.
JL: I’m not sure what you mean here. If you mean Jeremiah and John the Baptist, yes they were BORN without sin, so that makes two more human exceptions to your “ALL” without any exceptions. Whether they sinned at some point in their life I don’t know, your point was ALL are born with original sin.So they are without sin also?
JL: Who said Joseph was in sin, the scriptures tell us he was a righteous man, Mt1:19. As far as your question, “So it was alright for Jesus to be raised by a man with sin but not the mother?”, Christ didn’t reside inside Joseph, did he? Christ didn’t become MAN, receiving his body and blood from Joseph, did he?So it was alright for Jesus to be raised by a man with sin but not the mother?
JL: I have nothing against this statement, I just don’t see how it has anything to do with the discussion.Satan is our enemy. He will do anything he can to get us to follow hes evil, deadly path. The Phrase “you will strike he heal” refers to Satan’s repeated attempts to defeat Christ during his life on earth. “He will crush your head” foreshadows Satan’s dereat when Christ rose from the dead. A strike on the heal is not deadly. but a crushing blow to the head is. See God was revealing his plan to defeat Satan and offer salvation to the world through Jesus Christ.
JL: Well you can stick to what you like, I will stick to the plain truth.Look I stick by “all” means “all” you stick by what you want to. Your not going to change my mind.
I’m glad to know that you have nothing agains this statement that is straight from the Baptist Study Bible explaining what it means.JL: Jesus didn’t come IN HUMAN FORM he BECAME a human being, remember the Word was MADE flesh. So that makes ONE human, born without sin, exception to “ALL”.
JL: I’m not sure what you mean here. If you mean Jeremiah and John the Baptist, yes they were BORN without sin, so that makes two more human exceptions to your “ALL” without any exceptions. Whether they sinned at some point in their life I don’t know, your point was ALL are born with original sin.
Now if you want to discuss ALL HAVE SINNED, committing an actual sin? Infants cannot commit an actual sin until they can know right from wrong. The mentally challenged who cannot reason right from wrong no matter what age cannot commit actual sin either. So we see exceptions to your “ALL” no matter how you slice it. Original sin is not an actual sin, it is a LACK of the indwelling Holy Spirit, lost by Adam and Eve for all mankind. Thru Christ we can receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, by water and the Spirit in baptism.
JL: Who said Joseph was in sin, the scriptures tell us he was a righteous man, Mt1:19. As far as your question, “So it was alright for Jesus to be raised by a man with sin but not the mother?”, Christ didn’t reside inside Joseph, did he? Christ didn’t become MAN, receiving his body and blood from Joseph, did he?
JL: I have nothing against this statement, I just don’t see how it has anything to do with the discussion.
JL: Well you can stick to what you like, I will stick to the plain truth.
And countless times on other threads.JL: Yes I know you have seen it at lest four times.
I have prayed or a better understanding about it and have been thinking about it and processing the information a long time ago and that is why I’m not Catholic.You are right. Hearing about something will not change anyone’s mind. Thinking about it, processing the information and praying for understanding may not change your mind,but at least you may have a better understanding of where Catholics are coming from.
I know thats a big long run-on sentence, but I am in a hurry. Must go. God bless!
I guess you didn’t see the part where I said that I don’t believe it eather, the part about Jesus having relations. But then you see what you want to see. I never read the DaVinci Code. As a matter of fact I did say this is for a different thread. I guess you don’t understand the whole 67 times our of 88 posts. Besides the vulture thing is dropped from here but you want to keep it alive, see why I used it. You are justifying my use of the word by bringing it up. Circuling around until you can use it in a type of attack.You said
"Now if you are a guest at your neighbor house and he/she starts to belittle you, tells your religious beliefs are not real because you are not a Catholic, make fun of your religion.
Have they disrespected you?"
I said
“I would leave”. And I have actually done that on occasion.
Whether you leave or not, of course, is your decision.
Yes, I do expect “men of the cloth” to be above public displays of vulgarity. Maybe that’s just a personal quirk, but I don’t think so.
BTW, I didn’t read the DaVinci Code, nor do I have any desire to, so I cannot speak to any claims that Jesus had relations with women. Perhaps you should start a thread on the “evidence”.
But then you will accuse us of being vultures because the claims are disputed!
You are impossible to communicate with. You only came on this site to agitate.I guess you didn’t see the part where I said that I don’t believe it eather, the part about Jesus having relations. But then you see what you want to see. I never read the DaVinci Code. As a matter of fact I did say this is for a different thread. I guess you don’t understand the whole 67 times our of 88 posts. Besides the vulture thing is dropped from here but you want to keep it alive, see why I used it. You are justifying my use of the word by bringing it up. Circuling around until you can use it in a type of attack.
I have known many ministers and priests that use vulgarity. So its ok to say them but not in public, inother words you want them to be a hypocrite correct? Let me ask you this if you substitute a “clean” word for a “vulgar” word isn’t the meaning the same? Its not the word but the meaning behind the word ie. if instead of using the word s— {vulgar} I use the word sugar,{clean} It a different word it sounds nice but the meaning is the same, it just don’t sound bad.
Bye-ByeYou are impossible to communicate with. You only came on this site to agitate.
You didn’t come to learn because you think you already know all there is to know about the Catholic faith.
I’m done!
JL: Your point would be? Are you impling you are a Baptist?I’m glad to know that you have nothing agains this statement that is straight from the Baptist Study Bible explaining what it means.
JL: God didn’t come IN human FROM, God=Jesus BECAME human. The Word was God and the Word BECAME FLESH. [1Jn4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.]Your right Jesus didn’t come in human form God did.
JL: So you reject scripture telling us John the Baptist and Jeremaih were SANCTIFIED in the womb, therefore NOT born with original sin?Sin is sin. It don’t say all have committed sin it says all have sined meaning original sin as well.
Bad attempt to TWIST on your part. What does being born without original sin have to do with being brought up by anyone?Good twist in the Joseph thing but does being raised stop at birth. Were you raised by your parents or did it stop at birth and you raised yourself from birth on. You don’t raise a child inside the womb the child is being formed or becomming a fully formed human in the womb not raised. You are raised after you are born, your parents raise you.