Satan: Bad guy or bum rap?

[Wormwood]

Ok this time the title is real!!
I know this seems like a pretty easy question but,
Before you starting furiously typing yes he is and why, here’s the reason I ask. I am tried to study the text without an implied understanding. That is to say, if someone said, “to work on the sabbath is a sin” I would ask what verse that appeared in and they could tell me. If I asked about easter, well I would get several different ways that easter became an implied custom. Having said that, I can’t find where Satan is pinned as the ultimate evil. At first he is chosen and second in heaven only to God. After he is banished from heaven, he appears a few more times, but never in the capacity I hear him spoken of now. Now it seems satan can be blamed for anything…our society is terrible because satan has our children under mind control and arguments likewise. When exactly does this occur? I can’t find where the hebrews curse satan for any of their misfortunes. When did this theory or practice originate? As a side question, if he tried to OVERTHROW GOD…and his punishment was to have to live here with us…what does that say about us?

 

[dumspirospero]

Adam and Eve tried to be equal to God as well…remember

Wormwood:

As a side question, if he tried to OVERTHROW GOD…and his punishment was to have to live here with us…what does that say about us?

 

[Andrew_11]

Wormwood:

Ok this time the title is real!!
I know this seems like a pretty easy question but,
Before you starting furiously typing yes he is and why, here’s the reason I ask. I am tried to study the text without an implied understanding. That is to say, if someone said, “to work on the sabbath is a sin” I would ask what verse that appeared in and they could tell me. If I asked about easter, well I would get several different ways that easter became an implied custom. Having said that, I can’t find where Satan is pinned as the ultimate evil. At first he is chosen and second in heaven only to God. After he is banished from heaven, he appears a few more times, but never in the capacity I hear him spoken of now. Now it seems satan can be blamed for anything…our society is terrible because satan has our children under mind control and arguments likewise. When exactly does this occur? I can’t find where the hebrews curse satan for any of their misfortunes. When did this theory or practice originate? As a side question, if he tried to OVERTHROW GOD…and his punishment was to have to live here with us…what does that say about us?

I find it kind of errie that your user name is the name of a devil in The Screwtape Letters. Have you ever read revalations? Do you remember the demons that tormented people in the new testament? Have you ever heard an exorcist talk about there experiences?Are you Catholic?

 

[Ghosty]

44 You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:44

It’s important to realize that Catholics don’t believe that Satan is responsible for all evil; humans do a damn good job on their own. I can’t speak for certain heretics who blame everything from avalanches to acne on Satan.

That being said, you asked for the verse, and there you have it. Enjoy.

 

[Shoshana]

My dear friend Wormwood…
Oh!! how I wish I had time to respond to this!

But, there is a story (I do not remember where it stems from), about this holy person about to enter a city. Now the city was in total chaos…laughing, drinking, yelling, fighting, carousing, etc…you can the drift. Now this holy person saw the devil sitting outside of the city against the city wall. The holy person said to it: ‘What are you doing here? Are you not the author of this kind of debauchery??’ :tsktsk: The devil looked at thim and said: ‘Well, I have no need to go in there as they are doing a good job themselves in making a mess of their lives!’

 

[Convert68]

Read about Jesus’s encounter with Satan in the Gospels. In Genesis, he disguises himself (itself?) and tempts Adam and Eve to listen to him (a talking snake) and to disregard what God, their creator told them. Think about it, this is a very bad guy who wants bad things to happen to others.

It might be easier to think about bad people in history - Hitler and Stalin - all the millions they killed or bad people in the Bible - how about Salome asking for John the Baptist’s head on a platter. Satan is depicted as worse than any or all of these people. It is important for us to appreciate that pure evil exists and wishes us nothing but ill.

 

[Wormwood]

I find it kind of errie that your user name is the name of a devil in The Screwtape Letters. Have you ever read revalations? Do you remember the demons that tormented people in the new testament? Have you ever heard an exorcist talk about there experiences?Are you Catholic?

Hmmm funny coincidence that. Yes I have read revelations obviously. Do I remember demons tormenting people… not so much.
Exorcist? Are you serious? And no, I am not catholic.

Ghosty:

John 8:44

It’s important to realize that Catholics don’t believe that Satan is responsible for all evil; humans do a damn good job on their own. I can’t speak for certain heretics who blame everything from avalanches to acne on Satan.

That being said, you asked for the verse, and there you have it. Enjoy.

Thank you. So the first occurance of Satan as the root of all evil isn’t until John? I thought it would be the case that this view of satan originated with the NT, but why? If the Jews never really bring it up, why would christians do it SOOOOO much? From all of the OT references Satan seems like an example of a bad leader, commanding his 1/3 into falling from grace, the first example of someone obeying their own rules instead of God’s. I just don’t see where he is designing video games or writing rock music…this view of Satan seems to be entirely christian. It also seems to be a cop out for having to take any blame for ourselves. I didn’t murder that guy, the devil made me do it…my child hates me because he is under satan’s spell…these are such ridiculous diffussions of responsability. It is no better than the parents who blame their child’s bad behavior on the child’s friends, or their music, or the school system…anything but themselves. If you have bad children, it is from bad parenting. In the same respect, if you murder, it’s because you are a bad person, not because some outside force made you do it. I agree with Ghosty that we do a good enough job ruining our own lives.

Shoshana

My dear friend Wormwood…
Oh!! how I wish I had time to respond to this!

Well thank you for your response just the same. I agree with the story you told too. It is not that I am a Satan sympathizer or anything, I just don’t see him as anything more than a minor character until NT and I was curious why.

In Genesis, he disguises himself (itself?) and tempts Adam and Eve to listen to him (a talking snake) and to disregard what God, their creator told them. Think about it, this is a very bad guy who wants bad things to happen to others.

Convert68: Well there are two points that kind of detract from that stance. 1) It is never stated that the snake is Satan…was it satan sursed to crawl on his belly and snap at the heels of man? and 2) Parts of the OT especially creation and the ark story, are borrowed from other cultures such as summerian babylonian and assyrian. In those other cultures, the god represented by the serpent was named EN.KI, and he was actually the protagonist of man, it was because he defied his brother EN.LIL that he was cast out a viewed as evil.
Whatever the case, neither the other ancient middle eastern cultures, nor the jews seem to place him as the father of ALL evil.

 

[adstrinity]

Wormwood, WHY do you ask Andrew_11 if he is serious about listening/reading what an Exorcist has to say? Seems like a legit question to me…

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood, WHY do you ask Andrew_11 if he is serious about listening/reading what an Exorcist has to say? Seems like a legit question to me…

Exorcisms are a laughable practice. Especially when you consider that in the old texts, having seizures was considered having demons…if your child had a seizure would you take him to a doctor or a priest? Not only that, but an exorcism is based on the assumtion that some etherial demons do exist. The poster was using exorcism as justification that satan was evil, but to me it seems like superstitous nonsense.

 

[Ghosty]

If the Jews never really bring it up, why would christians do it SOOOOO much?

Jews draw from the same Scriptures, but they don’t draw from the same tradition that modern Catholics do. At the time of Christ, there were quite a few Jewish schools of thought, not the least of which were the Sadducees and the Pharisees. The Sadducees didn’t even believe in the Resurection or the coming of the Messiah! The Pharisees became the modern Jews today.

Christians formed a seperate tradition, not noticibly splitting off for a couple of generations. Christians are noted for dealing with questions and issues that, for the Pharisees, just aren’t pertainant until the Messiah comes, and this was for obvious reasons. After the Messiah came, and delivered the completed body of teaching, the full picture could be discussed and explored for the first time. Until then Jews were left with multiple points of view on such matters as Satan and Hell, and still are to this day.

Satan is real. Jews and Catholics agree on that much. Jews just don’t have a full revelation of what exactly he *is, *and see no need to speculate too deeply on the matter. Some say he’s an angel, some say he’s a demon, some say he’s a pagan deity, but there is no settled distinction. It’s not until the Messiah came that it was revealed that he is a fallen angel that is the most powerful of demons (this is not found in the Tanakh at all). We talk about him more because we have more to say, pretty plain and simple.

 

[Shoshana]

Wormwood:

Thank you. So the first occurance of Satan as the root of all evil isn’t until John? I thought it would be the case that this view of satan originated with the NT, but why? If the Jews never really bring it up, why would christians do it SOOOOO much?

The Jews could have never discerned the presence of evil as we know it today. It was only until the Son of God took human flesh and walked the earth that the presence of the Evil One was unmasked. It would take a person of great holiness to disturb the ‘peace’ of the devil. And just the presence of the holy person would anger the devil. Evil will always attack Good.

From all of the OT references Satan seems like an example of a bad leader, commanding his 1/3 into falling from grace, the first example of someone obeying their own rules instead of God’s.
Satan is not only the example of a bad leader but he is the bad leader. He would not serve. The story goes when Satan found out that the Son of god would take on flesh, he rebelled and refused to worship a biped.

I just don’t see where he is designing video games or writing rock music…this view of Satan seems to be entirely christian.

We, a shumans, must fight against the flesh and/or the devil. This always has to be discerned in anyone’s life. Or it can even be a combination of thereof. Of course Satan would be a totally Christian perception…because it took a Christian to be able to discern it. I repeat, the jews could have never discerned the devil’s activity in any one person. We need the Holy Spirit to do so.
It also seems to be a cop out for having to take any blame for ourselves. I didn’t murder that guy, the devil made me do it…my child hates me because he is under satan’s spell…these are such ridiculous diffussions of responsability. It is no better than the parents who blame their child’s bad behavior on the child’s friends, or their music, or the school system…anything but themselves.

Yes, you are right. Too many times we give credit to Satan and his minions for anything wrong going on. It is a lack of wisdom and judgment. It is also a cop-out. It is the easy thing to do…

I agree with Ghosty that we do a good enough job ruining our own lives.

Again, you are right. The devil would not even bother with a person who is living the wild life. He does have him/her in his grips already. And I repeat, we could do this very well on our own. Some of our great Saints lead a life of debauchery and have never blamed Satan for their actions.

Shoshana
Well thank you for your response just the same. I agree with the story you told too. It is not that I am a Satan sympathizer or anything, I just don’t see him as anything more than a minor character until NT and I was curious why.

He is not a minor character Wormwood. Look at my answer from above…Jesus came on earth and unmasked Satan…as only the Son of God could at that time.

.

 

[miguel_delgado]

Wormwood:

Exorcisms are a laughable practice. Especially when you consider that in the old texts, having seizures was considered having demons…if your child had a seizure would you take him to a doctor or a priest? Not only that, but an exorcism is based on the assumtion that some etherial demons do exist. The poster was using exorcism as justification that satan was evil, but to me it seems like superstitous nonsense.

(read as deep evil voice) looks like you dont belive in the devil, dont worry, in life or in death YOU WILL (insert evil laugh here)

i am gone now…ppppoooooooffffffffffff

 

[Andrew_11]

Wormwood:

Exorcisms are a laughable practice. Especially when you consider that in the old texts, having seizures was considered having demons…if your child had a seizure would you take him to a doctor or a priest? Not only that, but an exorcism is based on the assumtion that some etherial demons do exist. The poster was using exorcism as justification that satan was evil, but to me it seems like superstitous nonsense.

Weird (as in supernatural) stuff happens all the time in exorcisms. Somtimes on the Discovery Channel and similar stations, they have documenteries about exorcisms. This stuff can’t be explained by science. In many cases, all kinds of things are done to drive the devil out, but it deosn’t leave until a Catholic priest preforms an exorcism. Exorcisms are in the Bible. Jesus deos them, and commands his apostles to do the same, you are as educated about the Bible as you claim to be, surly you will remember these verses.

 

[aaronjmagnan]

Wormwood:

Exorcisms are a laughable practice. Especially when you consider that in the old texts, having seizures was considered having demons…if your child had a seizure would you take him to a doctor or a priest? Not only that, but an exorcism is based on the assumtion that some etherial demons do exist. The poster was using exorcism as justification that satan was evil, but to me it seems like superstitous nonsense.

Maybe our medical science only cures the symptoms of demon possession…maybe sickness really is demons…

God bless.
Aaron

 

[Shoshana]

Wormwood:

Exorcisms are a laughable practice. Especially when you consider that in the old texts, having seizures was considered having demons…if your child had a seizure would you take him to a doctor or a priest? Not only that, but an exorcism is based on the assumtion that some etherial demons do exist. The poster was using exorcism as justification that satan was evil, but to me it seems like superstitous nonsense.

Wormwood,

We have had this discussion before. You do not laugh when you are in an exorcism…I know…and you know why that I know. In your words, I have lost 5 years of my life participating in one exorcism that is based on a superstition…I think not. There are many manifestations in the process of one but I assure it is not based on superstition. I reply…nonsense!

You prove to me that the devil does not exist…

 

[Montie_Claunch]

Well its nice to know that Satan still goes to good website. Maybe he can stay a few centureis it purgatory. Before he goes to hell.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

WORMWOOD

Not only that, but an exorcism is based on the assumtion that some etherial demons do exist. The poster was using exorcism as justification that satan was evil, but to me it seems like superstitous nonsense.

Jesus speaks of the devil as the father of lies. The devil does not want you to believe in him. He told you it’s all superstition. He lied and you’ve bought it.

So who is speaking nonsense?

 

[Wormwood]

Jews draw from the same Scriptures, but they don’t draw from the same tradition that modern Catholics do. At the time of Christ, there were quite a few Jewish schools of thought, not the least of which were the Sadducees and the Pharisees. The Sadducees didn’t even believe in the Resurection or the coming of the Messiah! The Pharisees became the modern Jews today.

As always one of the only people to address my question, and not the opinions that brought it about, is Ghosty…bravo. So it is because the messiah came that the christians had to draw conclusions about satan? That is to say, it was part of the Jewish tradition that after the messiah, the ultimate evil would be revealed?

It’s not until the Messiah came that it was revealed that he is a fallen angel that is the most powerful of demons

Does this appear in NT? I thought the fall of the morning star was in OT…

We talk about him more because we have more to say, pretty plain and simple.

Sometimes Ghosty it’s quality not quanity that counts

Shoshana: You also addressed the question at hand…diligent as always.

The story goes when Satan found out that the Son of god would take on flesh, he rebelled and refused to worship a biped.

Where is that story? And does it suggest that Satan had more than two legs? Maybe he’s a big spider that programs grand theft auto games in his meth lab while writing rap songs.

In your words, I have lost 5 years of my life participating in one

Hey hey, I never said that…oh wait I see what you meant Well I find it hard to believe that a seemingly rational person such as yourself has given 5 years to something like this. It reminds me of t.v. psychics and crystal healers. It fulfills some somatic need for an expression of spirituality (or psychosis). It’s like the churches where the people pretend to speak in toungues because the other people are doing it…they want to share that connection so they fake it until they feel it. Same could be true of “possession”. Being in a religion of guilt and evil spirits could cause some to feel that the part of them that lacks self control (or gives in to certain compulsions) must be a demonic presence. So they fake it until they feel it, that is to say they generate these thoughts until they generate themselves.

You prove to me that the devil does not exist…

You want me to prove that Satan does not exist? Only if you prove to me that Santa does not exist. Good luck

 

[Wormwood]

Andrew_11:

Weird (as in supernatural) stuff happens all the time in exorcisms. Somtimes on the Discovery Channel and similar stations, they have documenteries about exorcisms.

They also do documentaries on psychics, ghosts, ufo’s, bigfoot, and Mary M. as the mother of Christ’s child, …do you believe in all of that too?

Jesus deos them, and commands his apostles to do the same, you are as educated about the Bible as you claim to be, surly you will remember these verses

I recall casting sickness out of people…not demons that were making people commit bad behavior…care to site a verse or two?

aaronjmagnan:

Maybe our medical science only cures the symptoms of demon possession…maybe sickness really is demons…

Well you are on to something here…modern western medicine does address mainly symptoms and not root causes. That has more to do with repeat business than demons though. Now asian medicine, particularly acupuncture deals with root causes usually stemming from an inbalance, stagnation, or lack of vital energy called qi (chee). The reason I mention this is because there are a set of points that were used specifically for demonic possession, but as the nature of medicine change in the world, the points evolved into what they truly were, which was points for siezures, and emotional disturbances. It is not that the function of the point changed, but the understanding of that function. Demon in this sense refers to evil or impure qi, and not the spirit of an actual person or entity. What you have presented is an argument that is circa 2000 B.C., and that was prevelant in many cultures not just the ones that had heard of the God of Abraham.

Gilbert Keith:

Jesus speaks of the devil as the father of lies. The devil does not want you to believe in him. He told you it’s all superstition. He lied and you’ve bought it.

So who is speaking nonsense?

Still you guys mostly…don’t worry I’ll let you know when you say something smart. This was the exact mentality I was bashing. No you are incorrect sir, if I am at any fault at any time in my life it is due to my own shortcomings, and not some antagonistic outside force. PEOPLE are the root of all evil. Free will is the root of all evil. I have not been duped into thinking thusly I assure you. I take responsibility for my own actions instead of pawning the blame on some boogey man.

Montie Claunch:

Well its nice to know that Satan still goes to good website. Maybe he can stay a few centureis it purgatory. Before he goes to hell.

Yes I was happy to see that the Prince of darkness took time from his busy schedule of producing television shows and personally ruining everyone here’s life, to answer my poll.

 

[Eden]

Wormwood - You may have answered this on another thread but your profile says “N/A”. What faith do you profess to be, if any?