Satan: Bad guy or bum rap?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wormwood
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
BibleReader: Wormwood, Satan is referred to several times in Scripture as “the evil one,” or as “the wicked one,” depending on one’s translation.

Wormwood: Thank you, but I was refering to OT. I realize that this tradition exists in christianity, I was looking for it’s origin. Also some of these verses like (19), could be read with a general context. That is “evil one” in a general sense for any evil one. But these are good verses and thank you.

BibleReader: The Bible speaks at the literal or “plaintext,” level; and at the symbolic or sensus plenior or “fuller sense” level. The following verses from Isaiah dealt with the King of Babylon at the plaintext level. Christ, in Luke’s gospel, seems to affirm that these verses actually refer to Satan at the sensus plenior level.


12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations! 13 You said in your heart: “I will scale the heavens; Above the stars of God I will set up my throne; I will take my seat on the Mount of Assembly, in the recesses of the North. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will be like the Most High!” 15 Yet down to the nether world you go to the recesses of the pit! 16 When they see you they will stare, pondering over you: “Is this the man who made the earth tremble, and kingdoms quake? 17 Who made the world a desert, razed its cities, and gave his captives no release? 18 All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; 19 But you are cast forth without burial, loathsome and corrupt, Clothed as those slain at sword-point, a trampled corpse. Going down to the pavement of the pit, 20 you will never be one with them in the grave.” For you have ruined your land, you have slain your people! Let him not be named forever, that scion of an evil race! Isaiah 14:12-20.
 
40.png
Wormwood:
Yeah I think I have gleaned all of the positive responses I am going to get with this one.
Probably.
Your questions?
You’re supposed to help yourself…everyone else has to.
There is a precedent for this…‘this is My son, the beloved…listen to him.’
Listen and learn, from others here, good advice if you want it.
 
http://biblia.com/jesusm/devil-temptations.jpg

Human reason alone cannot prove with certainty that good angels and devils actually exist. As purely spiritual beings, they are beyond our perception and comprehension. Only one who knows that they exist–namely God–can reveal this fact to us. And He has done just that.

But is the existence of the devil an article of faith? The answer is yes; but to be believe that the devil exists requires motives of credibility, as does faith in any article of revealed truth. In other words, the human intellect must perceive that it is reasonable to believe a given revelaed truth. Once that is verified, it is not only reasonable, but because it is divinely revealed, it is more true and certain than any truth that we could acquire through purely human knowledge. We can always be mistaken and fall into error, but God, who is infinite truth, cannot err or deceive us.

The existence of the devil is therefore a truth known by an indirect proof. We know that he exists because God Himself has revelaed it to us in both the OT and the NT of the bible. We can safely say that this revealed truth has never been denied in the past by any theologian in the Christian tradition. Some may have been in error concerning the nature of the devil. but they never denied that he exists—until modern times, that is.

In his book on Satan, E. Bortone states: ‘To expel Satan from Scripture, it would be necessary to tear out many pages from the OT and even more from the New’ (EB, p.71). And Zahringer says: ‘From the very beginning amd with an ever-increasing certainty revelation affirms the existence of evil spirits’ (MSp.790)

The Devil ‘…alive and active in our world…’
 
My parents’ home was haunted. I think that a Ouija board an older brother and sister played with, when I was 4 years of age, started it all.

Because I was curious, I was stupid. I tried to communicate with the thing. One day, when I was 21 years of age, when I asked the thing to communicate with me, it clearly tried to enter my body through my nose and mouth, and possess me.

After the family had left the house, I turned-off all of the lights, put a crayon and a paper on the coffee table in the room where the thing loved to manifest itself, and said, “Okay, whoever you are, please communicate with me.”

Suddenly, a kind of “cloud of coldness filled with nervous energy” formed against my face, chilling it, touching, touching, touching my skin. I felt it zipping into my nose and throat, touching, touching, touching internal surfaces. It reached heart-level in my chest, and instantly made my heart race crazily. I thought, in a panic, “Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh! It’s trying to to take me over! [meaning, ‘Trying to posses me!’]. GOD, please help me!”

Poof! The instant I sincerely asked God for help, it clicked “off.”

BELIEVE me – they’re not nice!
 
Human reason alone cannot prove with certainty that good angels and devils actually exist. As purely spiritual beings, they are beyond our perception and comprehension.
I think you are using “reason” to assume that angels are “purely spiritual”. The writtings seem to indicate quite the opposite, as the angels are described physically and performing physical actions. No astral projection discussed.
Only one who knows that they exist–namely God–can reveal this fact to us. And He has done just that.
And the people he actually revealed the fact to, recorded them as physical beings.
In other words, the human intellect must perceive that it is reasonable to believe a given revelaed truth. Once that is verified, it is not only reasonable, but because it is divinely revealed, it is more true and certain than any truth that we could acquire through purely human knowledge.
Still the issue remains that the people who witnessed this truth, recorded physical beings. Could these angels and/or fallen angels be the ancient pagan gods? Not only are some of these pagan “angels” mentioned in OT, but they also were identifiable by something exceptional about their appearance, just like in the story of Lot when the angels were recognized for who they were on sight. These pagan gods were identified because they had horns, and they were physical beings but they did have telepathic powers such as reading minds (like the angels do when Sara “laughs inside herself” and they know) and also they could fly into the “heavenly abode” and convene with the “father of the gods” (at least in summerian)…sounds suspiciously similar to what you call angels/fallen angels. And the Summerian/assyrian/babylonian tradition holds that their gods were physical beings that would personally bless them and ride to war alongside the armies (just like the greek account of troy). Just something to think about…other traditions have similar beings and they were all physical…the only traditions I know of with metaphysical beings are eastern, like buddhism, yogi mystics, etc. So to tie this all in: if he is just a fallen being, how could Satan cause everyone to sin? Isn’t it more likely that for whatever reason people have grown away from the church, and that it is our own choices that cause us to suffer? Thanks Shosh.
 
Didn’t someone once point out (might even have been Aquinas) that the Devil exists - and existance is a good… so in one somewhat convoluted sense at least it is true to say that the devil is not all bad!!!
 
40.png
Wormwood:
I think you are using “reason” to assume that angels are “purely spiritual”. The writtings seem to indicate quite the opposite, as the angels are described physically and performing physical actions. No astral projection discussed.

Angels are purely spiritual (except for my grandson 😛 ). In the bible they are described as you say but that is only when a human’s eyes are opened to the spiritual world. In other words, when we are open to ‘reality’…then perhaps we will be reecptive to this supernatural world (the reality of life). We are all surrounded by this spiritual world and yet we do not see them or feel them.

And the people he actually revealed the fact to, recorded them as physical beings.

Yes, angels and demons may take on the form of a human being. And we see this in the bible also. The book of Tobit comes to mind, etc. It is not so unusual and perhaps, it is very probable it happens today. The best rendition of a human taking on human flesh is "The Devil’s Advocate’ by Al Pacino.

Still the issue remains that the people who witnessed this truth, recorded physical beings. Could these angels and/or fallen angels be the ancient pagan gods?

Yes, there may be correlation but I believe God builds on nature. He transcends these pagan idols and uses them, I believe to help the Israelites along. Maybe it was more understandable to them this way. But I will look into it and get back to you on that.

It also reminds me of when God asked Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice. Well, this act alone was not unfamiliar at the time as Abraham lived amongst this kind of thing. This action also becames the prelude to Jesus sacrificing Himself for our sins.

…sounds suspiciously similar to what you call angels/fallen angels. And the Summerian/assyrian/babylonian tradition holds that their gods were physical beings that would personally bless them and ride to war alongside the armies (just like the greek account of troy). …other traditions have similar beings and they were all physical…the only traditions I know of with metaphysical beings are eastern, like buddhism, yogi mystics, etc.

Yes, I am aware of the similarities between these pagan stories and our own. But I will get back to you on this…

So to tie this all in: if he is just a fallen being,

Well, he was a little more than that. He was God’s right hand man…thus the intelligence he had then he carried with him on the other side of the spirit world. There are different degrees of intelligent/non-intelligent fallen angels! No different than humans, I guess!

how could Satan cause everyone to sin?

He doesn’t cause anyone to sin. We do have free will. And much of our ills come from within our own sinfulness and evil nature.

Isn’t it more likely that for whatever reason people have grown away from the church, and that it is our own choices that cause us to suffer?

Yes, when we seperate ourselves from the sustaining life of the church (the body of Christ), we do suffer whether we acknowledge it or not.

Thanks Shosh.

You are welcome Wormwood. But I will be back to haunt you…😃
 
40.png
pilchard:
Didn’t someone once point out (might even have been Aquinas) that the Devil exists - and existance is a good… so in one somewhat convoluted sense at least it is true to say that the devil is not all bad!!!
Code:
Yes, Lucifer at one point was the epitome of good as he was the right hand man for God at one point. So, his existence was good to the spiritual/physical world. But a being so intelligent who had the highest ‘intellect’ given to an created being that turns his back on God and refuses to serve Him turns real bad.

Everything that God created is good…unless one decides, by free will, to hate the Creator. And one created being to possess such knowledge could not have a second chance. Unlike man.
 
In the bible they are described as you say but that is only when a human’s eyes are opened to the spiritual world.
There is no precursor described for seeing them, surely the wicked see them as well as the righteous.
We are all surrounded by this spiritual world and yet we do not see them or feel them.
Well if we are surrounded by them, I am glad I can’t see them or hear them, that would make going to the bathroom a little weird 🙂
Seriously though, I agree that there are forces at work that can not be percieved, I just don’t know if I would extend that to angels who I have never had a reason to doubt, where physical.
Yes, there may be correlation but I believe God builds on nature. He transcends these pagan idols and uses them, I believe to help the Israelites along. Maybe it was more understandable to them this way. But I will look into it and get back to you on that.
Fair enough we can suspend this area of debate until you’ve brushed up a bit.
Well, he was a little more than that. He was God’s right hand man…
Well this raises two points. 1 he was god’s right hand MAN…think about humans…we are both physical and spiritual in nature…and 2 That knowledge leads away from God. To possess the most knowledge of any created being, but to fall just short of ultimate knowledge, lead him to rebel. You can’t say it was a stupid mistake as he was much smarter than any human and probably beyond our comprehension. So what was it? What is it about “knowledge” that seems conterintuitive to God’s law?
He doesn’t cause anyone to sin. We do have free will. And much of our ills come from within our own sinfulness and evil nature.
well I am glad someone still believes that.
You are welcome Wormwood. But I will be back to haunt you…😃
Non-sense as usual 😉
I consider every conversation with you it’s own blessing Shosh.
Now read some ancient pagan texts so we can speculate 🙂
 
The catechism makes a distinction between demon possession and psychological problems. This is in the section on sacramentals, at the end of the section treating on the Sacraments.

In the catechism there is a great deal regarding the devil.

In that Angel is the office, and Spirit is the nature, we are given to see that he is all spirit. Humans have spirit and body. If I am not mistaken, the spirit is the form of the body, and the two can not be separated in the human nature, while Satan is, as I said all spirit.

Satan is alluded to more in typology than direct reference, as he is considered to be the serpent.

Jesus saw him fall from the sky, and he said he teaches them to tread on serpents. That is in respect to the idea of casting out demons, in Luke. But Jesus also says not to rejoice for this, but because their names are written in heaven. So the Catholic believes that this occurs. It is a matter of faith based on acceptance of the authority of the church that these things exist, and not an issue dependent on your advances in science, or psychology.

Nor is it a projection, as we see that a projection implies unconsciousness, and the Catholic Church promotes consciousness through the Eucharist (see Karl Adam, the Spirit of Catholicism).

Anyway, I hope this information is helpful.

God bless,
Aaron
 
The catechism makes a distinction between demon possession and psychological problems.
Could you reference that for me plz? (i.e. sources page numbers, or even a brief synopsis)
In the catechism there is a great deal regarding the devil
That is even newer than NT. I wanted pre NT or transitional statements…these notions are long after the events in question…which is more reliable…firsthand or near firsthand accounts, or speculations and oral traditions originating much later?
Anyway, I hope this information is helpful
Not really but thanks anyway 🙂
 
I referenced it well enough. There is an online catechism listed in the Ask An Apologist Forum where you can search “sacramentals” and exorcism is included in that section.

Apparently you don’t understand the catechism. The catechism is a thological compendium that describes the faith in light of the scriptures, that is it makes inferences that are considered by catholics to be authoritative based on the succession of Peter through Christ. The new covenant, which was instituted by Jesus, gives authority to the Church.

You don’t want oral tradition but you want first hand accounts? I think you have an issue with the church, not reliablity; an issue with faith, not facts.

If you want a Catholic view (though I know you didn’t ask for this specifically) you have to go through the Catechism, or should at least as it is the most reliable explanation of the faith and Catholic, thus Christian belief, and Old Testament scripture.

If you want something other than this go read Joseph Campbell or something like that that relies on chronology and not inspiration.

God bless,
Aaron Magnan
 
Aaron Magnan
I referenced it well enough. There is an online catechism listed in the Ask An Apologist Forum where you can search “sacramentals” and exorcism is included in that section.
Not well enough. I did not want the tedium of having to read the catechism in it’s entirety. I thought since you seemed to know it so well, you would just post what it says.
Apparently you don’t understand the catechism
Nor do I have reason to.
The catechism is a thological compendium that describes the faith in light of the scriptures, that is it makes inferences that are considered by catholics to be authoritative based on the succession of Peter through Christ
This is not a very strong argument. Seems like catechism=assumptions more or less.
You don’t want oral tradition but you want first hand accounts
Ideally yes. Doesn’t that make more sense? I guess the intended impact of this statement was lost on me.
I think you have an issue with the church, not reliablity;
I think those “issues” would be one and the same.
an issue with faith, not facts.
This “issue” would be more the facts of the faith.

This is going no where. Thank you for your posts everyone, I am done with this one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top