Satan - can he be forgiven?

[Dameedna]

Well, I appreciate your comments about my comment

I’m a bit more philosophical about things, and am not a stickler for a specific doctrine or interpretation of it. I do not consider, any “scripture” to be sacred, since humans will alway’s mess it up anyway despite divine protection declarations. hehe

I say “IF” there is a Satan, or an actual entity that has chosen to be against God, then he can alway’s choose to be for God if he wants.

I think Satan is a metaphor for man, rather than a real identity anyway.

One of the reasons I’m not christian (although I like learning about it, hence the reason I’m here) is because the majority of christian denominations, declare the choice now, to be a choice eternal. There is a lot of theological debate around this as many theologians have alway’s disagree with this tenant, but for me…I simply don’t agree with it, and don’t need a theological debate to prove it to me.

Eternity is what it is. An unfathonable breach. Eternal punishment equates to eternal choice. You can’t have “eternal” choice, without “eternal” punishment nor “enternal” salvation.

The Eternal “choice” bit has been left out of the equation and hence the real dilema people face in accepting the horror of this particular element to faith.

Eternal punishment, without eternal choice, is chilling.

So yes, one can alway’s go back…eternally, and one can alway’s choose not to, eternally. I don’t believe that choice, is made…at one point, and is for-ever more, but is an “eternal” choice

Sounds like an escape clause. Unfortunately , it really isn’t because choosing what is right, doesn’t end with our death and progression to the next realm.

The Story of Satan, show’s us this

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Well, I appreciate your comments about my comment

I’m a bit more philosophical about things, and am not a stickler for a specific doctrine or interpretation of it. I do not consider, any “scripture” to be sacred, since humans will alway’s mess it up anyway despite divine protection declarations. hehe

I say “IF” there is a Satan, or an actual entity that has chosen to be against God, then he can alway’s choose to be for God if he wants.

From a Christian perspective this is not possible based on what we know and believe. It just doesn’t work that way. It encompasses a lot of factors, not the least of which is the nature of God, the nature of angels and God’s plan of salvation.

I think Satan is a metaphor for man, rather than a real identity anyway.

If you met him, I don’t think you would have any doubt.

One of the reasons I’m not christian (although I like learning about it, hence the reason I’m here) is because the majority of christian denominations, declare the choice now, to be a choice eternal. There is a lot of theological debate around this as many theologians have alway’s disagree with this tenant, but for me…I simply don’t agree with it, and don’t need a theological debate to prove it to me.

Eternity is what it is. An unfathonable breach. Eternal punishment equates to eternal choice. You can’t have “eternal” choice, without “eternal” punishment nor “enternal” salvation.

The Eternal “choice” bit has been left out of the equation and hence the real dilema people face in accepting the horror of this particular element to faith.

Eternal punishment, without eternal choice, is chilling.

So yes, one can alway’s go back…eternally, and one can alway’s choose not to, eternally. I don’t believe that choice, is made…at one point, and is for-ever more, but is an “eternal” choice

Sounds like an escape clause. Unfortunately , it really isn’t because choosing what is right, doesn’t end with our death and progression to the next realm.

The Story of Satan, show’s us this

I don’t believe in eternal punishment for humans. I believe in correction that is not eternal. Fallen angels and their dark leader are a different matter altogether.

From my subjective experiences with the afterlife, I’ve changed a lot of my own traditional Christian views of it. I believe Hell is a state of mind, not a geographical place.

I believe from my experiences that souls who leave their bodies without faith in Christ exist in a state of purgatory. They are given the opportunity to go into the light. If they refuse, they remain in this form for “X” amount of time and if they never accept, they simply will not enter heaven. If they accept, they will be purified and brought into God’s presence. Those who are in a state of grace at their time of death, are repentant and believing, go immediately into God’s presence. This doesn’t negate the judgments described in Scripture.

I can’t reconcile my experiences with some of Scripture. For that difference, I have no explanation except to say that I’m simply human and don’t have all the answers. There’s a great quote once that I heard and can’t remember where from:

“There is a God, and I’m not Him”

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Peace…

MW

 

[Dameedna]

From a Christian perspective this is not possible based on what we know and believe. It just doesn’t work that way. It encompasses a lot of factors, not the least of which is the nature of God, the nature of angels and God’s plan of salvation.

If you met him, I don’t think you would have any doubt.

Well I haven’t I don’t think. I’ve met some terrible people, but I’ve never seen the horny devil myself.

And I’ve met too many different christians to really have an idea on what the “christian” perspective is.

Some people really dislike that about their own faith. That there is so many variations. I think it’s actually a strength of the faith. By definition of the accepting nature of Jesus. It invites discourse alongside respect, debate alongside study, care alongside action.

It’s an amazing religion in many ways.

I don’t believe in eternal punishment for humans. I believe in correction that is not eternal. Fallen angels and their dark leader are a different matter altogether.

From my subjective experiences with the afterlife, I’ve changed a lot of my own traditional Christian views of it. I believe Hell is a state of mind, not a geographical place.

I believe from my experiences that souls who leave their bodies without faith in Christ exist in a state of purgatory. They are given the opportunity to go into the light. If they refuse, they remain in this form for “X” amount of time and if they never accept, they simply will not enter heaven. If they accept, they will be purified and brought into God’s presence. Those who are in a state of grace at their time of death, are repentant and believing, go immediately into God’s presence. This doesn’t negate the judgments described in Scripture.

I can’t reconcile my experiences with some of Scripture. For that difference, I have no explanation except to say that I’m simply human and don’t have all the answers. There’s a great quote once that I heard and can’t remember where from:

“There is a God, and I’m not Him”

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Peace…

MW

Well, I can tell you this much. If I come across the big dude after I die(which I do in fact greatly doubt…we probably just blink out) …but IF I do.

Me and God are gonna have words hehe.

I don’t think it’s about knowing if “christ” is real, but about understanding what is good. Do you lean toward it? or not?

If Jesus…the man appeared in front of me today, I’d book myself into the first hotel of “men in white coats”.

If I was dead however…I’d want to chat And I suspect if I was a scientist I’d be dying to know how quantum mechanics actually worked.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Well I haven’t I don’t think. I’ve met some terrible people, but I’ve never seen the horny devil myself.

I’ve met Lucifer and he’s really a nasty creature. He resembles a gargoyle. I actually believe he is a different creature than Satan.

And I’ve met too many different christians to really have an idea on what the “christian” perspective is.

It does vary, but falls along the same lines of who Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are and man’s purpose.

Some people really dislike that about their own faith. That there is so many variations. I think it’s actually a strength of the faith. By definition of the accepting nature of Jesus. It invites discourse alongside respect, debate alongside study, care alongside action.

It’s an amazing religion in many ways.

The simpler the Christian faith is along party lines, the better. Chaos is never a good thing.

Well, I can tell you this much. If I come across the big dude after I die(which I do in fact greatly doubt…we probably just blink out) …but IF I do.

You will one day. Everyone does.

Me and God are gonna have words hehe.

That’s understandable, but I don’t think you’ll be able to say much when you see Him.

I don’t think it’s about knowing if “christ” is real, but about understanding what is good. Do you lean toward it? or not?

I don’t understand this. Can you explain further?

If Jesus…the man appeared in front of me today, I’d book myself into the first hotel of “men in white coats”.

No, you’d be awestruck by His presence. It would be unmistakably real - no need for white coats.

If I was dead however…I’d want to chat And I suspect if I was a scientist I’d be dying to know how quantum mechanics actually worked.

He would do most of the talking. We humans tend to talk too much and drown out His voice. Quantum mechanics is of this world. Once we leave it, there’s not much interest in the things of this world. At least, that’s my belief based on my work.

Peace…

MW

 

[JTBT]

Didn’t Origen think that eventually even satan would be reunited with God?

 

[masterjedi747]

wouldn’t hurt to pray for the fallen one to come to his senses.

and yes, i know that’s unlikely…

Impossible, not unlikely. It wouldn’t hurt, but it couldn’t help either.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Didn’t Origen think that eventually even satan would be reunited with God?

He never went so far as to say that they would for sure be reunited, but he did think it was possible. His works are largely lost, but there are some that remain. I found some here:

earlychristianwritings.com/origen.html

But, I did not find anything specifically related to apokastasis.

For me, he was a brilliant theologian from what little I read.

Peace…

MW

 

[Dameedna]

I don’t understand this. Can you explain further?
MW

Jesus is very real to some people, and doesn’t exist to others. For many more he was just a person(including some christians) etc.

People are going to follow , for the most part the faith tradition they have been raised in. Regardless of wether or not they have been “exposed” to the teachings of Jesus, their mind-set will be different and Jesus to some, will be no different than reincarnation to others.

The human brain is very flexible, but it can also be extremely ridgid and is very suspectable to 'programming". A God that created us…is going to be quite well aware of this.

But regardless of a belief, a person ‘within their own limitations’ are still either trying to do the right thing, or not.

People claim I’ll burn forever because I don’t “accept” my saviour. I have no problem being saved or loving my saviour IF he/she is real. But there has never been any indication to me that any religious figure is anything more than a human deeply connected to themselves and those around them.

Since I’ve lived this life, and since belief is not a choice for me(regardless of what others will claim), if there IS a God, I doubt he’s going to care too much in what I believe, but more in how I lived and what I chose to do.

Yes, dreadfully heretical I know. Good thing us heretics no longer get exiled or killed

 

[Harmony1988]

THanks for the answers people, but I disagree with what people say about Satan being intelligent.

He was of the order of Cherubim wasn’t he? In either case he is an angelic rank which is far more intelligent than any human. Furthering the fact that you can see Satan’s presence causing trouble on earth and deceiving people is intelligence enough.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Harmony,

I think what you are asking is an unknown right now. I understand everything everyone else is saying about Satan being an angel and once how each angel makes a choice that is set permanently.

I also know that God can grant "irresistable graces:, or graces that are especially designed for an individual so that God has foreknowledge that the grace will not be refused. That is an accepted theological principle. It probably is a good thing to pray specifically for that type of grace for people we know who need it.

I also know that Julian of Norwich, an English anchorite had a vision or something like that which she wrote about in which she foresaw some kind of amazing miracle of mercy which could not be complelely named or explained by her, but she felt that “all will be well”, meaning God’s mercy was great and powerful enough to even heal Satan.

So… I don’t know… it could be possible, however I would just leave it at that. It is one of those “GREAT UNKNOWN” things…

God Bless, maryJohnZ

 

[DocCormac]

Re Origen and apokatastasis:

newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

BEWARE of the article by Edward Moore on the subject, which is hosted by a very suspect site.

 

[Joe_B]

Regarding this topic, the one aspect that has bothered me is that if Heaven is unimagenably great and beautiful, why would Satan and a third of the angels relinquish paradise and all it’s beauty? If Heaven and the Beatific Vision is so great (I do believe it is) - it is difficult to imagine why Satan and some of the other angels would freely give this up. With their superior intellect they must have known that if they did not follow the will of God - dire circumstances would occur. So - is Heaven as great as we believe it is??? (I supose that one could argue it does not have to be - it just has to be considerably better than Hell, especially considering that we all will be spending an eternity in one place or the other).

 

[Brian_Millar]

God is the judge, the final authority, he is justice to his core and his actions are rightous. If he were to forgive him, he would no longer be just, for there are too many that cry out to him for vengance for what the devil has done, both to God’s angels and to his children, man. There will be an end to his reign, and we will know all too well exactly why the original question and proposition is absolutely unrealistic on any level with that particular individual.

 

[hawkeye]

he had it all before and threw it away, I suppose he can be forgiven, but he doesn’t have the grace to beg for forgiveness, nor would he accept it, which comes from grace too, so basically no.

he and those in hell, appear to have went beyond the point of no return.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Regarding this topic, the one aspect that has bothered me is that if Heaven is unimagenably great and beautiful, why would Satan and a third of the angels relinquish paradise and all it’s beauty? If Heaven and the Beatific Vision is so great (I do believe it is) - it is difficult to imagine why Satan and some of the other angels would freely give this up. With their superior intellect they must have known that if they did not follow the will of God - dire circumstances would occur. So - is Heaven as great as we believe it is??? (I supose that one could argue it does not have to be - it just has to be considerably better than Hell, especially considering that we all will be spending an eternity in one place or the other).

It is because of their mistaken belief that they could be something greater than that which they already were. It is because they sought to have the same authority and dominion of the Father. Stupid belief, but they evidently had that belief.

Peace…

MW

 

[PIR1000]

As I’ve heard from priests before, Satan’s thought process is now much, much more along the lines of that alien in Independence Day that just hisses “die…” with every ounce of hatred and loathing imaginable. It truly doesn’t go far beyond that.

This is an interesting thread. I doubt, though, if Satan has lost any of his intellect. He would love us to think that he has, I’m sure.

Scriptures talk about the cunning, schemes, etc, of the Evil One. Those things take intellect.

Personally, I think that Satan has a a battle plan. If he is at war, then I’m willing to bet that he has a strategy. Admittedly this is just my theory, but it is along the lines of the Skrewtape Letters line of thought. Being a soldier myself, I’ve been looking over recent history (the last couple hundred years especially) looking for a discernable battle plan.

I have come to suspect that Satan possesses the likes of Hitler and Charles Manson as a diversion so that we get a very visible image in our minds of what evil looks like, so when we look at ourselves relative to them, we think we are righteous. And out of this self-assured righteousness are borne the heresies, apostasies, and arrogances that have the Body of Christ divided into 38,000 denominations. We think that things are inconsequential that are blasphemies in the eyes of God, like the “anointed word of God” doctrine amongst charismatics, and we lose site of the fact that all Eve did was eat a piece of fruit.

 

[Brian_Millar]

It is because of their mistaken belief that they could be something greater than that which they already were. It is because they sought to have the same authority and dominion of the Father. Stupid belief, but they evidently had that belief.

Peace…

MW

To add to this good statement, we look to man in the garden of eden, he had it made, everything was easy for him to exist, he should not have wanted anything more, yet Eve was tempted and fell in the same manner, almost a mirror context here.

 

[DocCormac]

Originally Posted by Joe B
Regarding this topic, the one aspect that has bothered me is that if Heaven is unimagenably great and beautiful, why would Satan and a third of the angels relinquish paradise and all it’s beauty? If Heaven and the Beatific Vision is so great (I do believe it is) - it is difficult to imagine why Satan and some of the other angels would freely give this up. With their superior intellect they must have known that if they did not follow the will of God - dire circumstances would occur.

You’ve just given an excellent definition of absurdity.

As my professor of fundamental theology is fond of saying, “Evil is the ultimate absurdity.”

 

[Frater_Bovious]

I think in some way the angels (and the devil(s)) stand as reminders of the decision we all have to make and will make eventually. Choose to follow God, or Don’t. Once that decision is made, it is irrevocable. For us humans, that decision is finalized at our death. God’s judgment is more or less his official recognition of the decision we made in life.

God has already officially recognized the decision of Satan.

Asking if Satan can be forgiven is therefore not too far removed from asking if a human can be forgiven after they have gone to Hell. It would seem the answer in both cases is No. - Frater Bovious

 

[cet]

Uh… he’s not an intelligent being.
He was, certainly, but he essentially rejected everything good that he had when he rejected God. He still has his angelic nature, but he’s only as powerful as God allows him to be.

There is a difference between powerful and intelligent… Satan is both, how else can he lead most of the world astray and tempt us to sin? If he’s not intelligent, then we that willingly sin, are truly stupid.

As I’ve heard from priests before, Satan’s thought process is now much, much more along the lines of that alien in Independence Day that just hisses “die…” with every ounce of hatred and loathing imaginable. It truly doesn’t go far beyond that.

Then my question is, HOW does the priest know that? Did he see him?
Anyways, that being said, why talk about Satan when Jesus is so much more interesting to talk about? We are no match for Satan, but if we are in Christ, shrouded in His righteousness, then Satan is no match for us. Focus on Jesus and find out by witch means we can stand strong against the enemy, then we will be successful in showing Satan the way out of our hearts and out into the wilderness.

Kindest regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal