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Brian_Millar
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I absolutely highly reccomend this thread to be locked, or better yet, deleted, too many references, too much thought into God’s opposition. Just my 2 cents.
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Annatar
Guest
The Spirit that is the Fallen Angel now known as the Devil, cannot change… because he is a spirit…???
That didnt stop him the first time!!!
If it happened once it COULD happen again.
Nothing is impossible to God!
As for pinkness… there is no such thing… its just desaturated Red. Call it pale red if you wish… pink… no such thing!
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Milliardo
Guest
Satan can be forgiven–God’s love is eternal and His mercy vast that He can forgive Satan. The problem is that if Satan is willing to be forgiven. The ball is in Satan’s court, not God’s. If he lets go of his pride and humble himself, I do not see why God will not forgive Him. For as long as he remains in his pride, then God cannot forgive him, for the simple reason that he does not ask to be forgiven.
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MaryJohnZ
Guest
Maybe someone else can correct me but the angels, when they were tested , had not experienced the Beatific Vision of God, and heaven, beyond being a ‘place’ is a state of union with God. So they have not ever known that. They were given the ability to choose it based on God being their Creator, which they did have full knowledge of but some of them, seeing the beauty of God that was merely mirrored in their own spirit worshiped themselves over God. I also had heard of a version of the angel’s test where they were shown a future vision of the Son of God as a man, and that caused them to believe their were superior since a guman form is so much more limited and may be suscepible to death. That is theoretical, not theological, but i wonder about it.
I also wonder about the fact that perfect contrition is all that is needed for them to be given forgiveness. Now they have full knowledge granted, but could God impart some grace of perfect contrition to them at some point…what if all the Saints and Angels in heaven, after the Last Judgement prayed fervently for the fallen bretheren, despite the wrongs, realizing that through the wrongs they had actually gained some merits…and if the prayer could rise up gaining some miracle of complete contrition and humilty for Satan who has been so egotistical and proud…
I don’t think that prayer would be beyond the Saints and Angels if it were in God’s Will which they would be united too, but all of that is theoretical of course, and I don’t know if it could or would happen.
But I do believe heaven is way beyond anything we have ever imagined. I don’t believe the fallen angels have ever completely experienced it.
God Bless, mary
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cet
Guest
He can’t be forgiven, because the bible says that he’s going to be thrown in the sea of fire. Even in the Old Testament, in the rituals of the sancuary on Yom Kippur, we can see that the goat for Azazel gets the blame for every sin committet and are sent away (to die). If God forgave him, he would have lied in the bible, hence he can’t be forgiven. It’s too late for him…
-c-
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
It was good enough for early church father’s to discuss, I might add. It is dangerous to continue putting a lot of thought into whether or not Satan can be forgiven. Frankly, my heart is pretty cold towards him and his state of being is pretty unimportant to me. That being said, it’s still a worthwhile mental gymnastics exercise.
Peace…
MW
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PIR1000
Guest
There are things that are impossible for God: to lie, to deny Himself, things like that.
God said that any sin can be forgiven except for whosoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit. I don’t know what that means. I’ve asked and never gotten a good answer, either, but I’m pretty sure that Lucifer and his followers have done it, what ever it is.
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Annatar
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In some ways B.A. from the A-Team summed it up pretty well.
“I pity the Fool!”
Oh just a thought…aint we told to hate the sin but love the sinner??
okay okay… im just playing devils advocate… scuze the pun. If its actually a pun in this case… hey ho
“I pity the Fool!”
Oh just a thought…aint we told to hate the sin but love the sinner??
okay okay… im just playing devils advocate… scuze the pun. If its actually a pun in this case… hey ho
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beckycmarie
Guest
Asking questions about and discussing the enemy doesn’t give him power over us. In spiritual warfare, just like in any other warfare, we need to know who the enemy is and what his tactics are if we are to be prepared to handle the attack.
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aksarben
Guest
Satan hates us because we are in God’s image. Like an apprentice artist rejecting its master, the student will hate anything the master creates because it reminds him of his former mentor.
Can you imagine Lucifer’s face when he realized that HUMANS were to inherit the Kingdom? HUMANS!!! Those flawed, fragile and sinful creatures which Lucifer probably didn’t think too highly of. I wonder if he believed that it was the angels who were the “rightful” heirs.
Remember Job and the wager Lucifer made with God? Did he make the water out of curiousity or was it contempt?
I see Satan as the ultimate suicide bomber. He knows he’s doomed. Whatever hopes he had for victory died on Calgary. Death and sin have been defeated…salvation and grace are available for the masses. When Christ returns and remakes the Earth (and glorifies the souls) Satan will have no more purpose.
Since he knows he’s doomed, he will try to take down as many people as possible.
Can you imagine Lucifer’s face when he realized that HUMANS were to inherit the Kingdom? HUMANS!!! Those flawed, fragile and sinful creatures which Lucifer probably didn’t think too highly of. I wonder if he believed that it was the angels who were the “rightful” heirs.
Remember Job and the wager Lucifer made with God? Did he make the water out of curiousity or was it contempt?
I see Satan as the ultimate suicide bomber. He knows he’s doomed. Whatever hopes he had for victory died on Calgary. Death and sin have been defeated…salvation and grace are available for the masses. When Christ returns and remakes the Earth (and glorifies the souls) Satan will have no more purpose.
Since he knows he’s doomed, he will try to take down as many people as possible.
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Brian_Millar
Guest
You guys that insist upon involking his name and turning your thoughts towards him are giving him a possible wedge into this place to cause trouble. This is why my stance on the subject remains that way.
If we want to be constructive here, let’s talk more about spiritual warfare, tactics we can use today for defense “and” offense. You don’t hear much along those lines in mainstream chat and I’d like to be further educated on that matter.
If we want to be constructive here, let’s talk more about spiritual warfare, tactics we can use today for defense “and” offense. You don’t hear much along those lines in mainstream chat and I’d like to be further educated on that matter.
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beckycmarie
Guest
Dear Brian,
Check out my signature line if you want to find a good spiritual warfare resource: the discussion group.
In The Screwtape Letters CS Lewis says, “There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about demons. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them.”
There’s definitely truth in that. If your interest comes from a perspective of learning to defend yourself and others in spiritual warfare, then it’s probably a healthy interest. If it’s just curiosity, it could very well lead to opening doors.
There is a theory out there that just saying the name of Satan or any other of his demons somehow “invokes” them - I believe that theory may be one of the many errors propagated by so-called demonologists Ed and Lorraine Warren.
Check out my signature line if you want to find a good spiritual warfare resource: the discussion group.
In The Screwtape Letters CS Lewis says, “There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about demons. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them.”
There’s definitely truth in that. If your interest comes from a perspective of learning to defend yourself and others in spiritual warfare, then it’s probably a healthy interest. If it’s just curiosity, it could very well lead to opening doors.
There is a theory out there that just saying the name of Satan or any other of his demons somehow “invokes” them - I believe that theory may be one of the many errors propagated by so-called demonologists Ed and Lorraine Warren.
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Brian_Millar
Guest
I figured it out, there is a glitch in the form, I changed the year to another one and the month and day popped up, I’ll be sure to bring up this instruction to be included in the form itself, I doubt I’m the only person that ran into this problem.
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Annatar
Guest
“Since he knows he’s doomed, he will try to take down as many people as possible.”
In some ways I think you are right, but truthfully I think he still thinks he can win. His Pride will allow nothing less.
It doesnt change anything though.
Have you read Paradise Lost. Milton has Lucifer knowing he cannot win but still utterly opposed to asking forgiveness. Seeking instead to ruin what works of God’s hands out of spite.
“What though the field be lost?
All is not lost–the unconquerable will,
And study of revenge, immortal hate,
And courage never to submit or yield:
And what is else not to be overcome?
That glory never shall his wrath or might
Extort from me. To bow and sue for grace
With suppliant knee, and deify his power”
A B-Movie(s) of sorts, with a good cast, I have to say I enjoy “The Prophecy”
Ignore the theme of a second war in Heaven. I do believe in the reason. The Devil’s arrogance believed he was wiser than God. He didnt want to share Heaven, to be usurped by “talking monkeys”.
His pride lead him to try to totally separate Man from God.
Side note: on that movie, I have to say I love the picture of Gabriel diving a beatup old convertable, playing a trumpet to Telstar.
Not something you see everyday!
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Annatar
Guest
"…
To wage by force or guile eternal Warr
Irreconcileable, to our grand Foe,
Fall’n Cherube, to be weak is miserable
Doing or Suffering: but of this be sure,
To do ought good never will be our task,
But ever to do ill our sole delight, 160 ]
As being the contrary to his high will
Whom we resist. If then his Providence
Out of our evil seek to bring forth good,
Our labour must be to pervert that end,
And out of good still to find means of evil; 165 ]
Which oft times may succeed, so as perhaps
Shall grieve him, if I fail not, and disturb
His inmost counsels from thir destind aim.
…"
The devil is a spoiled brat basically! Throwing a tantrum
To wage by force or guile eternal Warr
Irreconcileable, to our grand Foe,
Fall’n Cherube, to be weak is miserable
Doing or Suffering: but of this be sure,
To do ought good never will be our task,
But ever to do ill our sole delight, 160 ]
As being the contrary to his high will
Whom we resist. If then his Providence
Out of our evil seek to bring forth good,
Our labour must be to pervert that end,
And out of good still to find means of evil; 165 ]
Which oft times may succeed, so as perhaps
Shall grieve him, if I fail not, and disturb
His inmost counsels from thir destind aim.
…"
The devil is a spoiled brat basically! Throwing a tantrum
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D_M
Guest
God doesn’t profit from sin, therefore He could not profit from satan’s sin.
I think the war in heaven occurred outside of time, hence the fate of the fallen angels is technically sealed; it is not because God’s mercy lacks anything, but because of the irrevocability of their own free choice (ie. they are not going back)
I think God would forgive satan if satan asked for it. Although that would imply for satan that he then had to become obedient and respectful towards His Maker, and I don’t think satan plans on doing that any time soon.
There is a version of the aprocryphal book of Enoch that details the fall of the angels and suggests that they cannot be forgiven, on the other hand.
I would put this question forward perhaps: If satan decided by his own free will to stop tempting people, telling lies and decided to do God’s will to the best of powerful ability, do you really think God would stop him? God does not profit from sin.
Whenever I imagine satan, an image of George Bush passes into my head; the ruler of this world, who works to deceive the many and everything he says is a lie. He is even interested in Babylonia (Iraq), as was ‘Marduk’ (satan).
I think the war in heaven occurred outside of time, hence the fate of the fallen angels is technically sealed; it is not because God’s mercy lacks anything, but because of the irrevocability of their own free choice (ie. they are not going back)
I think God would forgive satan if satan asked for it. Although that would imply for satan that he then had to become obedient and respectful towards His Maker, and I don’t think satan plans on doing that any time soon.
There is a version of the aprocryphal book of Enoch that details the fall of the angels and suggests that they cannot be forgiven, on the other hand.
I would put this question forward perhaps: If satan decided by his own free will to stop tempting people, telling lies and decided to do God’s will to the best of powerful ability, do you really think God would stop him? God does not profit from sin.
Whenever I imagine satan, an image of George Bush passes into my head; the ruler of this world, who works to deceive the many and everything he says is a lie. He is even interested in Babylonia (Iraq), as was ‘Marduk’ (satan).
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sodak
Guest
Interesting, when I imagine Satan, I usually get images of people who mindlessly criticize our President without any concern for the facts.
Back on topic, I seriously doubt that he can be forgiven. But then, I’m not among the people who believe that we all choose at the moment of our death. I believe that our choices are made during our lifetime, and at death, God judges us. I don’t believe that we judge ourselves. Same thing for the angels/devils.
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Hastrman
Guest
But Satan can take a pleasing shape, and is both subtle and clever. So not the anti-Bush zealots, really.
I think this thread suffers from a great deal of anthropomorphism, though. Satan has no feelings, he’s smarter than anyone but God Himself. His behavior, therefore, cannot be based on motives that are akin to ours.
He is a pure spirit (an unalloyed essence), so he probably can’t be forgiven, since only things that partake of essences can change, by partaking of another essence. Essences themselves don’t change–pink things can turn red, but pinkness cannot become redness.
Incidentally, Marduk is nothing like Satan, he was the tribal god of the Babylonians (as Asshur was of the Assyrians and Moloch of the Carthaginians) and, as Babylonian gods went, pretty nice.
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