Satan - can he be forgiven?

[Life_in_God]

Detalea,

I watched the U-Tube and I thought it sounded a lot like Buddhist philosophy. She even used the word ‘nirvana’. If you are saying to be a ‘self’ is to be part of some universal spirit
in which we are all connected…that sounds like Buddhism…

The woman had a profound experience to her and I am sure you had a profound experience as well. But don’t automatically come to the conclusion that none of the people here on this site haven’t had profound experiences as well. There is a bit of arrogance in your conclusions if you should do that.

I would be equally arrogant if I concluded God did not give you some special experience or grace, not lnowing what your experience was. But since you don’t know me, don’t know any of my spiritual life, any of the ways God has acted in my soul then to speak to me as if you have certainty that I have never had equal experiences is to judge me as well as to pass judgement on the majority of people whom you feel have not had the same experience you have had simply because they have not or are unable to reach the same conclusions you have reached.

The idea of the 'Mystical Body" of Christ in Catholic belief is the closest thing which comes to my mind when I hear what this woman says in that each of us in joined into the spiritual union of Christ through the life He imparts to us in the Eucharist, but it is more complex than just some ‘supra union’ in that each individual person has eternal value as well. Each individual soul is like a universe of its own in my understanding, created by God to exist in union with a physical body because that is the nature of being human. This woman’s philosophical view seems to denegrate the body and the temporal world as inferior. If it is inferior, it is due to the flaws brought into creation by original sin making it full of disease and illness and strokes and imperfections and the divisions she talked about…

Can any of us say what reality would have been without the affects of origianl sin? Not really… Was the brain so divided before the 'fall"? St. Catharine of Genoa addresses some of the questions you open up in her discussion of the relationship between soul and body.
Before the 'fall" , I am sure the ‘being’ of man experienced a wholeness which sin has corrupted. If that wholeness is to be restored it would be through God and His Holy Spirit.
Mary, the Immaculate Conception, is probably the one person who can say she experienced a wholeness in her being that would be near to the wholeness of creation before the ‘fall’, She speaks of how her soul magnifies the Lord and how her Spirit has rejoiced in God, her Savior.Some of the incorruptibles as Saints show us that union with God can have a physical affect preserving the body even after death.

It seems to me that God has given us the Eucharist as a life giving source to unite us and the world and Satan are giving us false ideas about unity including what is expressed in that u-tube…a unity based on science and materialism, and socialism and of individual ‘wills’ to make it perfect unity and peace as if it comes from within us. The Holy Spirit is from God alone and we are joined by being guided by God’s Holy Spirit and God’s Will and His way of Divine Love, not our way separate and apart from God. I didn’t hear anything in that woman’s talk giving credit to God, His Spirit and His creative power for the beauty and order of His creation. She made it sound like “we” as in ‘mankind’ with our
pride and egoism are capable of being in charge separate from God’s guidance and love.

I find this to be the same fruit offered Eve in the garden “and you will be like gods”…

I understand that it is possible to be raised up and see things from a different perspective, but be wary of any doctrine that falsifies such an experience into a source of pride. Anyone can be given a moment of grace and then decide to misuse it or interpret it wrongly.

Since you are outside the Church, I take it you are not partaking in the Eucharist, do not believe Christ is God’s Son and that Christ is our Savior. Part of the Creed talks of the glorified body and as Catholics we believe our souls and bodies are so bound together that the separation of body from soul is incomplete happiness and that the re-uniting of soul and body at the general resurrection will amplify the joy of the Saints who are now in heaven separated from their body. Christ’s Resurrection included the Glorified Body. mary’s Assumption included her body.

Who can say what it is to have a glorified body? Certainly not the woman in the u-tube.But our Creed affirms the holiness of all of God’s creation including the union of soul and body and the value of each individual person as a unique exprssion of God’s love. To be apart from those beliefs is to be in a self-deluded darkness not in ‘nirvana’.

God Bless, Life in God

 

[Life_in_God]

No, Satan can not be forgiven. This is not due to a flaw in Gods plan, or a lack of Charity on Gods part. It is due to the immutable nature of Satan’s sin.

I saw a quote from Thomas Aquinas “to speak of unforgivable sin is to impune God;s divine power”

Does the Catechism say satan’s sin is unforgiveable…or that Satan cannot convert? Or is the Church’s teaching obscure on this point. Julia of Norway talked of a miracle beyond our understanding in regards to the conversion of the souls in Hell.Or is it just that in the spiritual realm things are fixed forever…and can we know that for certain?

Does satan have a soul anyway? Do angels have souls? Could someone clarify this for me.

Thanks,

Life in God

 

[Detales]

LIG, Have you ever undertaken a serious study of how you yourself think about and perceive things? It is a fascinating revelation if you can do it. If you look at the beginning sentence of your post, you will see that you are already making things like one another in a pre-conceived fashion insrtead of teasing out the understanding of new relationships that can be considered as to validity and/or truth on their own terms. There is, you will notice, value judgment inherent in your opening, allong with all its accompanying sub-text. This is very hard to overcome, and I admire even your effort to persist in dealing with it, nevertheless. Just as a start, “sounds like” doesn’t mean “is.” Therein lies a key, one among many on a particularly wonderful chain.

Is there anything in particular you can point to in what I said that indicates that I feel that others have not had profound experiences? Actually, I believe that many have more profound experiences than they even perceive, but have not the tools to recognize that, or have not had them enough to get their attention. Walk down the same block three times. Each time wear a different “hat.” Say, a utility repairman looking for problems in overhead wires, a policeman looking for a suspect, and a mother looking for her child. Are they qualitatively different? So it is when we look at information through Catholic or other eyes. Is the word different? No, it is our lenses. Sometimes we have to let ourselves see, even if we do not agree, through other lenses to perceive the validity within a contextual view in order to be competent to discuss it. Few do that with any thoroughness or circumspection.

I have no judgment about the"equality" of experiences therefor, only that they may be interpreted through different lenses, some less clear than others in a Universal sense. In that matter, there are certain criteria that can be useful and I try to use those with care.

I also think that you are both reading too much into the lecture, and also, in my experience, making religious dot connections which mimic the actuality of Life, but nevertheless are off just enough to be misleading. That, to me, having been a very well catechized, devout and proselytizing RC, is an important point.

As to the nature of the brain “before the fall,” etc, I treat of that in post #42 here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6043173#post6043173 Though I have for myself a clear, revitalized, and practical understanding of the important significance of the Eucharist, it is dissimilar enough from yours that I won’t assail your sensibilities with my view unless you ask further. You seem happy with yours, and that is good. Similarly, I completely disagree with you that she made it sound that we can do it without “God’s guidance and Love.” That you can say that further convinces me that you have seen her lecture through filters inappropriate to the task.

I’m reminded of a friend who wished to join a book discussion group. He was told “read the book.” He came back and reported that he had read it. He was told, “no, read the book.” He, in his mind, did so again, and went back to report on his understanding. He was again admonished to read the book. To this day I don’t know why he persisted, but he actually “read” the book until the 26th time he got that he was projecting his interpretation on the pages and not receiving information. What a life lesson!!! It was similar to the Jesuit who went though one of my Mentor’s lectures seven times before realizing that he was not reading the words on the page as meant, but his own superimposition. Both those examples are improvements on the Biblical standard of 40, which is more usual.

So, no “apple” (where did that come from? there is no apple mentioned in the bible,is there?) in your terms is being offered, but something entirely different which you do not yet perceive, and may not want to. That’s fine, and a matter of your won agency as described in your dynamic of “fall.” “You” are the world you wander through, as is the case with us all. Some just do it in greater awareness than others, which is the point, I see, of the Jesus teachings as well as others. It might be useful in this case to make a read of Gina Cerminara’s unfortunately titled handbook for religious sanity.

I am not, nor can anyone be, outside the Church, I do partake of the Eucharist, though not in our terms. And I know, do not believe, that Christ is the Son of God, though my understanding of Savior is radically different from yours, necessarily. There is, as well, a far more practical and immediate read of the idea of resurrection in the instances you note. But that is yet another chapter in this story. And why do you believe that those creed beliefs are different than Nirvana? They are not. Experience and discover.

 

[Life_in_God]

Well, I guess I have your own words as to an example of not ‘reading’ a text since I never used thw word “apple” and am well aware that “apple” is not used in the bible but “fruit” is the term used.

However, the word 'apple" from the Jewish on-line encyclopedia has relevance to the Garden of Eden story and that is partly why it is associated with the story, since it is considered a metaphor for the “Word” of God, which is a sweet fruit. The “Apple Orchard” in Jewish mystical tradition was the adorers of the Presence of God. Jesus is hailed as the “fruit” of Mary’s womb, making her the New Eve who has not reached for the fruit of her own accord but who was given the fruit by asking that 'It be done unto me according to your word" when she spoke to the angel who carried God’s Word to her at the Annunciation. Thus you have Mary at the Annunciation receiving the 'Word" of God from an Archangel juxtaposed in opposition to the 'Serpent or Satan" who was a fallen angel, preaching a false gospel to the first Eve who receives that false word. or false gospel.

Jesus being the Incarnate, Living Word" of God is the fruit of the mystical Treee of Life and is our Savior. My sister Ann, Astell wrote a beutiful book on the Eucharist which might interest you called “Eating Beauty” I did the artwork on the cover. I hope you have an opportunity to 'read" it and reflect on the meaning inside.

[

I do understand that 'reading" a book is more than just taking in the literal words, etc. and that profound expreiences happen every day and moment even…that we are surrounded by grace and that every thing is miracle. But to be down to earth for a moment, we are creatures of the earth and living on the "Mt.Tabor " plane of daily experience for long extended periods does not allow for the practical laboes of every day, and would probably take away merit from the practical labors, Living in the “desert” can take more effort and be more meritorious at times since it calls for that perseverance of duty and self sacrifice which leads us to holiness.

I believe you are well intentioned and I am truly sorry you lost your faith. Remember Jesus is always at the door knocking…and I am sure He misses you at the table of the Eucharist. Being Catholic doesn’t blind a person to the beauty of life. I don’t know who you have for a mentor but it is important in seeking truth, to be able to filter out false views from truth. Not everything is equal, and some very evil ideas have been presented and sold to people over the course of history as being “good” when they were the opposite. it would have been important for the doctor in the u-tube to mention God if she believed in Him as her presentation sounded like a view of ‘illumination’ quite apart from belief in God, and I do mean God as in a Supreme Being who created us, not some other concept.You are being misleading if you say her presentation included “God” but that I am missing the point because I don’t have her view of God. I do not accept the New Age interpretation of God as some cosmic form of universal oneness.

I have tests to grade and work to do so I better not spend much time here. I give you my best wishes that your search for 'Truth" continues and leads you back to Christ and his Church.

God Bless,
Life in God](http://http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/cup_detail.taf?ti_id=4539)

 

[Detales]

As a sculptor with works in private and corporate collections in North America and Europe, I can qulifiedly say that your art work is lovely. I kept looking til I found a larger image. And please rest assured that I have not left either Christ nor the Church as it truly is.

Thank you for your kind sentiments, and Blessing and Best to you.

 

[Life_in_God]

Thank You Detales for your comment on the art. If you wouldn’t mind I would love to see images of your artwork if it is online somewhere, please send a link.

tru;y we need more spiritual art in the world right now!

God Bless, Life in God

 

[Detales]

I agree with LIG that there is a need for more art work that lifts the heart and mind to God. A mind full of Life, Truth, and Love has no room for diabolic suggestions. Also, “you get what you pray for” has a harmonic in that what you organize your thinking around tends to precipitate into your experience. And yet, it is good to warn your friends of the foe in ambush, so it is as well necessary to be awake as to where our beliefs of any kind come from. Pertinent to that, I might recommend for those interested, post #478 at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6046732#post6046732