Satan in Islam is not an Angel at all !!!

[Sam_777]

Satan in Islam is neither an Angel nor any type of Angels!, he is just another creation of God called (Jinns) beside human beings (see the Quranic verses below).
Quran (18:50):
“Behold! We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam”: They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!”
Quran (51:56):
“I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.”
Quran (55:15):
“And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke”.

However, in the Bible Satan is a fallen Angel, he was anointed Cherub which is a rank in the angelic hierarchy according to Christianity & Judaism, (Ezekiel 28:12-18), (2 Corinthians 11:14), (Revelation 12:3-9). (1) (2)

I have the following remarks on this topic:

• How Satan will be punished by fire (hell) when it’s made of fire!
• How come all the Prophets in the Bible did not mention that specie (Jinn) at all!
• If someone takes the Islamic claim that the Bible is corrupted, then what the Jews and Christians have gained by hiding that specie!

 

[bmullins]

I’m not expert on the Muslim face, but there are a few things I see there that make me think this is merely semantics.

It says that He said to the angels, and all of them bowed, except Iblis. Which indicates that Iblis was an angel as well, or else it wouldn’t matter if he bowed or not. After all God said to the angles, not to anyone else. Now Iblis was one of the Jinns… which means a Jinn is a type of angel?

So if we look:

And (remember) when We said to the angels: “Prostrate yourselves before Adam.” And they prostrated except Iblis (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah). S. 2:34

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: “I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him.” So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. S. 15:28-31

And (remember) when We said to the angels: “Prostrate yourselves to Adam.” They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. S. 20:116

(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: “Truly, I am going to create man from clay”. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. S. 38:71-74

All of these indicate that Satan (Iblis) was an angel. So either angels are jinns, and jinns are angels… which explains why the authors of the Bible felt it not necessary to define the distinction between them… or the Quran contradicts itself.

Another question you have is how can a Satan be punished by the flames of the lake of fire? God is all powerful, he isn’t limited by concepts of physics and mortal existence. The fire of God is more powerful than any of his creation, so I have no doubt that if he desires to punish someone with fire, then no matter what they are composed of… it will happen. But the concept is that eternal exile into the lake of fire burns precisely because it is separation from God in all ways. The love of God comforts those in his presence who believe, purifies those who are impure, and burns the wicked. It’s more than just fire that must consume combustibles.

The last one is merely a straw-man. There is no proof that the Septuagint or the bible have been corrupted, and the more we undercover archaeologically indicates that it hasn’t been (though many modern translations attempt to do so.) That’s what the Church is here to do, protect the bible from corruption.

 

[Kaninchen]

I blame the Sky God ‘An’ some of whose children fell out with him and went off and applied to Ereshkigal (Queen of the Underworld) for the jobs of judges of the dead.

In other words, it all goes back to Sumer.

 

[RatzingerTheRat]

Religion is a mental illness

Not even trolling on this one.

 

[Sam_777]

All of these indicate that Satan (Iblis) was an angel. So either angels are jinns, and jinns are angels… which explains why the authors of the Bible felt it not necessary to define the distinction between them… or the Quran contradicts itself.

Well, here is an authentic hadith which mentioned that Angels were made of “light” while Jinns where made of “fire”, so we cannot assume the two species are same!.

Sahih Muslim, Book 042, Number 7134:
'A’isha reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Angels were born out of light and the Jinns were born out of the spark of fire and Adam was born as he has been defined (in the Qur’an) for you (i. e. he is fashioned out of clay).

صحيح مسلم - كِتَاب الزُّهْدِ وَالرَّقَائِق
قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ خُلِقَتْ الْمَلَائِكَةُ مِنْ نُورٍ وَخُلِقَ الْجَانُّ مِنْ مَارِجٍ مِنْ نَارٍ وَخُلِقَ آدَمُ مِمَّا وُصِفَ لَكُمْ
​

Another question you have is how can a Satan be punished by the flames of the lake of fire? God is all powerful, he isn’t limited by concepts of physics and mortal existence. The fire of God is more powerful than any of his creation, so I have no doubt that if he desires to punish someone with fire, then no matter what they are composed of… it will happen.

Okay, accepted.

The last one is merely a straw-man. There is no proof that the Septuagint or the bible have been corrupted,

I agree with you, but my point was if we assume the Islamic claim, then what that would benefit the Jews & Christians to hide such information!
And I would not assume GOD waited 7600 years to tell the human beings that there is a specie called “Jinns”

 

[Sam_777]

I blame the Sky God ‘An’ some of whose children fell out with him and went off and applied to Ereshkigal (Queen of the Underworld) for the jobs of judges of the dead.

In other words, it all goes back to Sumer.

 

[Kaninchen]

Oh, you find all sorts of interesting things in Sumerian religion, Sam.

You can’t divorce some of these widely-held ideas from the context in which they grew up - the idea of Satan ‘evolved’ in a context of the dominant Middle Eastern mythologies of the time - the Great Goddess Religions, Zoroastrian dualism etc.

Judaism was a huge religious reformation in the understanding of God but, just as Islam finds itself trapped in the context of cultural practices that are not part of it (like, say, female genital mutilation in parts of Africa), it existed in a world of all sorts of other ideas that some people absorbed.

 

[elwill]

I agree with you, but my point was if we assume the Islamic claim, then what that would benefit the Jews & Christians to hide such information!
And I would not assume GOD waited 7600 years to tell the human beings that there is a specie called “Jinns”

may be jews and christians assumed that he was an angle without intentions from them

beside , The Bible lacks a great deal of information about Satan’s history with GOD Almighty and Adam

 

[Sam_777]

Oh, you find all sorts of interesting things in Sumerian religion, Sam.

You can’t divorce some of these widely-held ideas from the context in which they grew up - the idea of Satan ‘evolved’ in a context of the dominant Middle Eastern mythologies of the time - the Great Goddess Religions, Zoroastrian dualism etc.

Judaism was a huge religious reformation in the understanding of God but, just as Islam finds itself trapped in the context of cultural practices that are not part of it (like, say, female genital mutilation in parts of Africa), it existed in a world of all sorts of other ideas that some people absorbed.

I agree with you, although Samaritans are monotheists but they worship what they do not know per (John 4:19-24):
“Sir,” the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem. Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

So I would assume that Muhammed had copied the Samaritans or Zoroastrian religions ideas/imaginations and spread them into Islam…

 

[Sam_777]

may be jews and christians assumed that he was an angle without intentions from them

beside , The Bible lacks a great deal of information about Satan’s history with GOD Almighty and Adam

elwill,

No, that would not be logical to assume!, that third party specie which is called “Jinns”, should have been identified to Adam at least, and GOD in the OT or NT should have mentioned that there is a third party specie which worship GOD, as Muhammed claims that there are Muslim Jinns who worship Allah, why Moses did not tell the Jewish that there is another specie whom are Jewish also, or why Jesus who came from heavens did not tell the Christians that there is a specie which worship GOD beside them!

Non of them did, except Muhammed who came with the idea of “Muslim Jinns”!, and don’t tell me that it was not important to tell the Jews & Christians about such specie, because according to Muhammed there is a single Jinn for every person on this earth, so it’s very important to know about them.

However, the only explanation as Kaninchen have pointed out, Muhammed took such ideas from different monotheists religions and put them in Islam.

 

[Kaninchen]

I agree with you, although Samaritans are monotheists but they worship what they do not know per (John 4:19-24):
“Sir,” the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem. Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

So I would assume that Muhammed had copied the Samaritans or Zoroastrian religions ideas/imaginations and spread them into Islam…

It’s the Sumerians I was talking about - think Babylon, Ur places like that. The Tigris-Euphrates civilizations, ie the big alternative to Egyptian civilization in Middle Eastern ancient history until the Persians came along.

We’re talking about thousands of years of folk memories, folk religions and superstitions.

 

[Sam_777]

It’s the Sumerians I was talking about - think Babylon, Ur places like that. The Tigris-Euphrates civilizations, ie the big alternative to Egyptian civilization in Middle Eastern ancient history until the Persians came along.

We’re talking about thousands of years of folk memories, folk religions and superstitions.

Sumerians/Samaritans :whacky:, they both worship what they do not know…

However, Arabian Peninsula had many religions during Muhammed time, one example is the Yazidi’s religion which seems it had much influence on Muhammed:
1) Yazidis have five daily prayers, the dawn prayer, the sunrise prayer, the noon prayer, the afternoon prayer, and the sunset prayer.
2) Yazidis make at least one pilgrimage during their lifetime to their tomb in Iraq, and they also have places called “Mountain Arafat” & “Zamzam spring” similar to the names in Islamic Hajj sites.
3) Almost the same symbol of the worship places, look at the top of their tomb here:

 

[elwill]

elwill,

No, that would not be logical to assume!, that third party specie which is called “Jinns”, should have been identified to Adam at least, and GOD in the OT or NT should have mentioned that there is a third party specie which worship GOD, as Muhammed claims that there are Muslim Jinns who worship Allah, why Moses did not tell the Jewish that there is another specie whom are Jewish also, or why Jesus who came from heavens did not tell the Christians that there is a specie which worship GOD beside them!

Non of them did, except Muhammed who came with the idea of “Muslim Jinns”!, and don’t tell me that it was not important to tell the Jews & Christians about such specie, because according to Muhammed there is a single Jinn for every person on this earth, so it’s very important to know about them.

However, the only explanation as Kaninchen have pointed out, Muhammed took such ideas from different monotheists religions and put them in Islam.

where in the bible it says that satan is an angel ?

and which relegions believed in existence of jinn pre_islam which you claim that mohammed (pbuh) took from them ?

 

[elwill]

thank you , i find myself convinced now that jinn were worshipped as pagan deities pre_islam

if you believe in existence of satan and his army of demons , then we just consider them to be a jinn

so to tell me that jinn not exist means for me that demons not exist either

so don’t argue with me about jinn being exist or not , we are talking about the same creatures afterall , but we differ about them being fallen angles or just another creature called jinn

 

[Sam_777]

where in the bible it says that satan is an angel ?

I referenced for that in my original post!, here are they in English & Arabic:

(Ezekiel 28:12-18):
“You were anointed as a guardian cherub,for so I ordained you.”

أنت الكروب المنبسط المظلل ، وأقمتك . على جبل الله المقدس كنت . بين حجارة النار تمشيت
​

(2 Corinthians 11:14):
“And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.”

ولا عجب . لأن الشيطان نفسه يغير شكله إلى شبه ملاك نور
​

(Revelation 12:7-9):
“And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”

وحدثت حرب في السماء : ميخائيل وملائكته حاربوا التنين ، وحارب التنين وملائكته ولم يقووا ، فلم يوجد مكانهم بعد ذلك في السماء فطرح التنين العظيم ، الحية القديمة المدعو إبليس والشيطان ، الذي يضل العالم كله ، طرح إلى الأرض ، وطرحت معه ملائكته
​

and which relegions believed in existence of jinn pre_islam which you claim that mohammed (pbuh) took from them ?

Since you read and understand Arabic, then I suggest you read this book about the Arabs history prior to Islam:

المفصل فى تاريخ العرب قبل الإسلام
islamport.com/w/tkh/Web/2300/1.htm

​

 

[Sam_777]

I agree with you, that specie is just an ancient myth, else it should have been mentioned in the Bible…

 

[elwill]

I agree with you, that specie is just an ancient myth, else it should have been mentioned in the Bible…

i don’t agree with your logic
both of muslims and christians believe in existence of creature called satan
muslims believe that satan is a jinn while christians believe that he’s an angel

for other people , existence of jinn in the bible would be another myth added to the list of mythes
don’t talk about the bible as if it was reference to all the facts in this world

 

[Sam_777]

don’t talk about the bible as if it was reference to all the facts in this world

Throughout all my Islamic wahabi life and all my education, I never found answers to many things in this life except when I have read the Bible…

For me there is an answer for every single problem in this world, starting by the creation and ending by nowadays disasters, before I had many “why, why, why”, now I have “I know, I know, I know”, all of that because there are answers & wisdom in the Bible, so YES the Bible is the reference to all the facts in this world…

 

[rinnie]

Throughout all my Islamic wahabi life and all my education, I never found answers to many things in this life except when I have read the Bible…

For me there is an answer for every single problem in this world, starting by the creation and ending by nowadays disasters, before I had many “why, why, why”, now I have “I know, I know, I know”, all of that because there are answers & wisdom in the Bible, so YES the Bible is the reference to all the facts in this world…

Isn’t it amazing also when you are really having a bad day, you can close your eyes open up the bible, to practically any chapter and feel like God is talking just to you.

I like you. see so much in the bible that relates to the world today just as yesterday. Its just like history repeating itself.

Its funny because all I ever hear is the RCC never changes. I guess its because the word of God never changes,and not only that the world never truly changes.

Sure we have changes in high tech, things like that. But truly people never really change. You have the same thing going on today just like 2000 years ago. You have people who steal, cheat lie, etc.

And then you have the righteous who pray, honor God, try to follow his commandments, repent, forgive and love others.

It is quite amazing how the bible is as tune to the world today as yesterday.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Throughout all my Islamic wahabi life and all my education, I never found answers to many things in this life except when I have read the Bible…

For me there is an answer for every single problem in this world, starting by the creation and ending by nowadays disasters, before I had many “why, why, why”, now I have “I know, I know, I know”, all of that because there are answers & wisdom in the Bible, so YES the Bible is the reference to all the facts in this world…

Granted, though a difficult path to dialogue with Islam. No easy path with common ground.