Satan of the OT and the NT

[meltzerboy]

You probably know the passage in Isaiah about the fall of the king of Babylon who is likened to the ‘morning star’ (14:12-18), right? Since early Christian days, there was already a tendency to interpret this text typologically as referring to the fall of the Evil One - Satan (though they also recognized the literal reading of the text).

I need to qualify your statement that “Judaism asserts that the latter name preceded the former whereas, I believe, Christianity claims the opposite.” I know me quoting Wikipedia will raise some eyebrows, but I think at least it sums the data well enough (from the article Lucifer):

Origen (184/185 – 253/254) interpreted such Old Testament passages as being about manifestations of the Devil; but of course, writing in Greek, not Latin, he did not identify the Devil with the name “Lucifer”. Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225), who wrote in Latin, also understood Isaiah 14:14 (“I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High”) as spoken by the Devil, but “Lucifer” is not among the numerous names and phrases he used to describe the Devil. Even at the time of the Latin writer Augustine of Hippo (354 – 430), “Lucifer” had not yet become a common name for the Devil.

Some time later, the metaphor of the morning star that Isaiah 14:12 applied to a king of Babylon gave rise to the general use of the Latin word for “morning star”, capitalized, as the original name of the Devil before his fall from grace, linking Isaiah 14:12 with Luke 10:18 (“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven”) and interpreting the passage in Isaiah as an allegory of Satan’s fall from heaven.

I’ll let you in on a secret. (Well, maybe it’s not so much a secret.) That popular story among us Christians about Satan/‘Lucifer’'s fall has more to do with John Milton’s Paradise Lost than it has about the actual Scriptures.

In the Christian Scriptures, what you really have is a brief statement from Jesus about seeing Satan falling from heaven “like lightning” (Luke 10:18), John’s vision of the war in Heaven (Revelation 12:7-9), as well as typological/allegorical interpretations of certain Old Testament passages such as the Isaiah 14 passage or Ezekiel’s prophecy against the king of Tyre (28:11-19), likening him to a ‘covering cherub’ who was “on the holy mountain of God” (at least in the Hebrew text; the Septuagint instead seems to compare the king of Tyre to Adam instead). That’s it. All you can infer from those passages is the idea that Satan was thrown out of Heaven; if you add in the Isaiah passage, you might infer that the cause of the fall was maybe due to pride on Satan’s part.

Everything else you might hear (Satan’s original name being ‘Lucifer’, Michael getting his name because he literally said, “Who is like God?” Lucifer/Satan’s defiant line: “Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven,” etc.) is more the product of centuries of pious Christian imagination and/or John Milton ‘filling in the blanks’. In other words, it’s more in the realm of legend/folklore/poetic license than actual doctrine. Nobody was there to witness the actual event of course, so I guess that can’t be helped.

In fact, the Catechism only lays out the barest essentials as to who and what the Devil is, and does not go into specifics. This pretty much sums up some of what we Catholics believe about Satan.

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”. The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.”

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.

Very informative. Thank you!

 

[cisco_1]

Here’s what i have problems with in regards to Satan.

It is agreed by Catholics and the majority of Protestants that Satan was an angel who rebelled against God and was then cast out.

So we go to the Garden of Eden, the beginning of the world… Adam and Eve disobey God… commited the first sin and now this world falls unto the curse of death (we all die), there are disasters and evils all around… in short, due to sin our world became this dark world, right?

Here’s what i have a hard time understanding (there is several logic holes that i have).

• If Satan rebelled in heaven (hense sinning), then that means that the first actual sin was committed in heaven. So why didn’t the outcome of earth (due to sin entering it) happen as well with Heaven since sin managed to enter it?
• I don’t get how it is possible to sin in heaven. I mean God’s grace should be so consuming there, just like the waters of the ocean… and if it is possible to sin in heaven then is there any possibility that the people we believe to have gone up (from the saints to the angels) there are still there? I mean if the highest angel managed to sin, then it should be logically possible for people/saints/prophets/angels who have been there are prone to sin.
• Sort of like the 2nd question. If us people sin due to falling into the temptation and lies of Satan and his demons, then how do Angels sin? Who tempts them?

 

[bisco1]

it’s a mystery, isn’t it?

 

[patrick457]

Ah, but we’re back at the problem I raised earlier - are we talking about the experience of the Jewish People as a whole, over hundreds of years, so that Christianity was a continuation of a mainstream apocalyptic base, or are we talking about on/off outbreaks of the ‘apocalyptic’?

That’s the thing right there - was there actually ‘a mainstream apocalyptic base’?

 

[Kaninchen]

That’s the thing right there - was there ‘a mainstream apocalyptic base’?

All a woven web of guesses.

 

[patrick457]

• Sort of like the 2nd question. If us people sin due to falling into the temptation and lies of Satan and his demons, then how do Angels sin? Who tempts them?

As per Catholic teaching, they don’t ‘sin’. The fallen angels ‘sinned’.

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.
**
393** It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”

What sets apart angels from humans in Catholic teaching is that the angels really only got a one-time choice.

I think this article from the late Fr. John Hardon might help.

8. What was the grace which the angels possessed when they were created?
It was sanctifying grace. It was a supernatural gift of God which gave them a share in the divine nature along with a title to inherit the Kingdom of God in the beatific vision. Associated with sanctifying grace, the angels also received the infused virtues and gifts of the Holy Spirit, together with a right to those actual graces which were necessary to preserve and increase the supernatural life.

**9. Were the angels not originally created in heaven?
No, the angels had to cooperate with the grace of God to reach heaven.

10. Why then does Jesus say, “I saw Satan like lightening falling from heaven”(Luke 10:18)?
The word “heaven” in this context does not mean the possession of God in the Beatific Vision. Rather it means that the angels fell from sanctifying grace which gave them a title to heaven.

11. What then does it mean that some of the angels entered heaven?
It means that those angels who cooperated with God’s grace merited to see God face to face. It further means that all the angels were originally on probation. They were, in theological terms, in via, that is “on the way” to heaven. It finally means that those who reached heaven by using their free will to cooperate with the will of God.**

12. How did some of the angels sin?
The Church’s tradition tells us they sinned by pride and envy. This was the primary sin of the angels. It was the sin of a spiritual being, since the angels have no bodies. The angels sinned because they refused to God as their Creator.
However, the angels also sinned by envy. They coveted the Divine excellence. We may also say they envied human beings who, they understood, would also reach heavenly beatitude.

13. What was the damnation of the unfaithful angels?
Basically it was, and is, eternal separation from God. What our faith tells us is that the punishment of the angels is the same as that of human beings who die unrepentant of their grave sins.

 

[patrick457]

All a woven web of guesses.

Never a truer word was spoken. That’s all it boils down to really. Nobody living right now was ‘actually there’. All we have are bits and pieces of the past.

 

[cisco_1]

As per Catholic teaching, they don’t ‘sin’. The fallen angels ‘sinned’.

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.
**
393** It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”

What sets apart angels from humans in Catholic teaching is that the angels really only got a one-time choice.

I think this article from the late Fr. John Hardon might help.

8. What was the grace which the angels possessed when they were created?
It was sanctifying grace. It was a supernatural gift of God which gave them a share in the divine nature along with a title to inherit the Kingdom of God in the beatific vision. Associated with sanctifying grace, the angels also received the infused virtues and gifts of the Holy Spirit, together with a right to those actual graces which were necessary to preserve and increase the supernatural life.

9. Were the angels not originally created in heaven?
No, the angels had to cooperate with the grace of God to reach heaven.

10. Why then does Jesus say, “I saw Satan like lightening falling from heaven”(Luke 10:18)?
The word “heaven” in this context does not mean the possession of God in the Beatific Vision. Rather it means that the angels fell from sanctifying grace which gave them a title to heaven.

11. What then does it mean that some of the angels entered heaven?
It means that those angels who cooperated with God’s grace merited to see God face to face. It further means that all the angels were originally on probation. They were, in theological terms, in via, that is “on the way” to heaven. It finally means that those who reached heaven by using their free will to cooperate with the will of God.

12. How did some of the angels sin?
The Church’s tradition tells us they sinned by pride and envy. This was the primary sin of the angels. It was the sin of a spiritual being, since the angels have no bodies. The angels sinned because they refused to God as their Creator.
However, the angels also sinned by envy. They coveted the Divine excellence. We may also say they envied human beings who, they understood, would also reach heavenly beatitude.

13. What was the damnation of the unfaithful angels?
Basically it was, and is, eternal separation from God. What our faith tells us is that the punishment of the angels is the same as that of human beings who die unrepentant of their grave sins.

Then how did these angels fall if they didn’t sin, and where did this priest get his info?

 

[patrick457]

Then how did these angels fall if they didn’t sin, and where did this priest get his info?

Um, did you read no. 12? “The Church’s tradition tells us they [the fallen angels] sinned by pride and envy. This was the primary sin of the angels.”

 

[meltzerboy]

Um, did you read no. 12? “The Church’s tradition tells us they [the fallen angels] sinned by pride and envy. This was the primary sin of the angels.”

Did most or all of the angels who sinned belong to the higher order of angels like Lucifer? And where does all the information of the Church about angels come from?

 

[patrick457]

Did most or all of the angels who sinned belong to the higher order of angels like Lucifer? And where does all the information of the Church about angels come from?

It’s mostly a combination of the bits and pieces from Scripture (or rather, a form of interpretation of Scripture) and speculation by theologians. If you want a frank answer, all that’s really fixed is that God created angels in a state of innocence and ‘probation’ (i.e. they had a choice to either obey God and thus attain Heaven/the Beatific Vision or not), but some of them sinned (= willingly rejected God) and became evil by their own act. The specifics (just exactly what was the nature of the ‘probation’ of angels, the exact nature of the angels’ sin - if ‘pride’, exactly what form of pride? - the specific reason why said angels committed that sin, etc.) on the other hand is a matter of guesses, I believe.

 

[cisco_1]

Um, did you read no. 12? “The Church’s tradition tells us they [the fallen angels] sinned by pride and envy. This was the primary sin of the angels.”

I’m not asking what their sin was. You said that Angels don’t sin but fallen angels do… if that is so, then how did these angels become fallen if according to what you quoted, “they can’t sin”?

This also goes for my second question, based on this latest quote of yours: if Angels sinned (by pride and envy) then does that also mean that other people who are now in heaven (our loved ones, the saints…) can possibly sin up there and get booted out? And since those angels sinned, then why didn’t heaven change like the Earth did when sin entered it?

 

[bisco]

i could be wrong here, but i believe you have to be perfect to enter heaven. thus the need for purgatory. once there, i see no reason why we will still not have free will. but once you’ve lost the propensity to sin (no more fallen nature) there will be no desire for it.

 

[glendab]

Hello Cisco.

I’m not asking what their sin was. You said that Angels don’t sin but fallen angels do… if that is so, then how did these angels become fallen if according to what you quoted, “they can’t sin”?

This also goes for my second question, based on this latest quote of yours: if Angels sinned (by pride and envy) then does that also mean that other people who are now in heaven (our loved ones, the saints…) can possibly sin up there and get booted out? And since those angels sinned, then why didn’t heaven change like the Earth did when sin entered it?

Nothing impure is in Heaven. Since all those in Heaven, God, people and angels, are pure, there is no longer any inclination towards sin, so no sin could possibly be committed there. For us humans, those of us who are going to Heaven will have to be purified and this happens as Scripture says, as through fire, which is Purgatory. It has also been said that the degree with which we are attached to our sins is the degree with which that fire will purify us, i.e. little attachment to sin, little purgation needed, lots of attachment to sin, lots of purgation needed. But once the process of purgation is complete, there is no longer any inclination to sin in the soul purified who then enters Heaven. So, no there is no possible way that a person can go to Heaven and be booted out.

Oh and about the angels, when the fall of the angels happened before the creation of Adam and Eve, they were divided into two parts, one third went the way of rebellion and fell and were damned for all time to be devils. The other two thirds were rewarded with an eternity of always doing God’s will perfectly, that’s why they are angels. They will no longer ever face that first and only test of their wills. Now the devils only have an evil will and the angels only have a good will and this is the way it is and will always ever after be. After this great battle between the devils and the angels in which Michael lead the Heavenly Hosts, man was made, so this was already over with. The devils look on men and envy them because for man he can turn from sin and learn to do good and be saved and then go to Heaven. That is what makes the devil hate men with a diabolical hatred, because among other things we can change our eternal destiny. They can’t and know it so the conspire to take it away from men. That is why they tempt men the way they do, so they’ll fall into mortal sin and wind up in Hell with them.

Hope this helps.

Glenda

 

[meltzerboy]

Hello Cisco.

Nothing impure is in Heaven. Since all those in Heaven, God, people and angels, are pure, there is no longer any inclination towards sin, so no sin could possibly be committed there. For us humans, those of us who are going to Heaven will have to be purified and this happens as Scripture says, as through fire, which is Purgatory. It has also been said that the degree with which we are attached to our sins is the degree with which that fire will purify us, i.e. little attachment to sin, little purgation needed, lots of attachment to sin, lots of purgation needed. But once the process of purgation is complete, there is no longer any inclination to sin in the soul purified who then enters Heaven. So, no there is no possible way that a person can go to Heaven and be booted out.

Oh and about the angels, when the fall of the angels happened before the creation of Adam and Eve, they were divided into two parts, one third went the way of rebellion and fell and were damned for all time to be devils. The other two thirds were rewarded with an eternity of always doing God’s will perfectly, that’s why they are angels. They will no longer ever face that first and only test of their wills. Now the devils only have an evil will and the angels only have a good will and this is the way it is and will always ever after be. After this great battle between the devils and the angels in which Michael lead the Heavenly Hosts, man was made, so this was already over with. The devils look on men and envy them because for man he can turn from sin and learn to do good and be saved and then go to Heaven. That is what makes the devil hate men with a diabolical hatred, because among other things we can change our eternal destiny. They can’t and know it so the conspire to take it away from men. That is why they tempt men the way they do, so they’ll fall into mortal sin and wind up in Hell with them.

Hope this helps.

Glenda

IOW misery loves company with regard to Satan and the other fallen angels?

 

[cisco_1]

i could be wrong here, but i believe you have to be perfect to enter heaven. thus the need for purgatory. once there, i see no reason why we will still not have free will. but once you’ve lost the propensity to sin (no more fallen nature) there will be no desire for it.

Nothing impure is in Heaven. Since all those in Heaven, God, people and angels, are pure, there is no longer any inclination towards sin, so no sin could possibly be committed there. For us humans, those of us who are going to Heaven will have to be purified and this happens as Scripture says, as through fire, which is Purgatory. It has also been said that the degree with which we are attached to our sins is the degree with which that fire will purify us, i.e. little attachment to sin, little purgation needed, lots of attachment to sin, lots of purgation needed. But once the process of purgation is complete, there is no longer any inclination to sin in the soul purified who then enters Heaven. So, no there is no possible way that a person can go to Heaven and be booted out.

Oh and about the angels, when the fall of the angels happened before the creation of Adam and Eve, they were divided into two parts, one third went the way of rebellion and fell and were damned for all time to be devils. The other two thirds were rewarded with an eternity of always doing God’s will perfectly, that’s why they are angels. They will no longer ever face that first and only test of their wills. Now the devils only have an evil will and the angels only have a good will and this is the way it is and will always ever after be. After this great battle between the devils and the angels in which Michael lead the Heavenly Hosts, man was made, so this was already over with. The devils look on men and envy them because for man he can turn from sin and learn to do good and be saved and then go to Heaven. That is what makes the devil hate men with a diabolical hatred, because among other things we can change our eternal destiny. They can’t and know it so the conspire to take it away from men. That is why they tempt men the way they do, so they’ll fall into mortal sin and wind up in Hell with them.

Hope this helps.

Yes but this makes the question as to how Satan and his angels fell. You both have made it clear that it is impossible to sin up there.

 

[patrick457]

I’m not asking what their sin was. You said that Angels don’t sin but fallen angels do… if that is so, then how did these angels become fallen if according to what you quoted, “they can’t sin”?

Let’s put this in context. First, I need to emphasize that angels are different creatures from humans, and so things that apply to us humans does not necessarily apply to them. In other words, be careful about anthromorphizing angels.

We humans, we have the capability of sinning and repenting many times during our lifetime, right? But that’s not exactly the case with angels. (Somebody correct me here if I misstated something.)

When the angels were created, they had the option of either choosing God or rejecting Him. The one choice they made in the beginning determined their eternal state; their wills permanently reflect their choices. That’s why the concept of ‘repentance’ (i.e. the changing of one’s mind) is really foreign to angels. They’re not like us humans, who can be holy the one day, sin the next, and then repent on the third day. For angels, once the decision was made, they stuck by it/were stuck to it. That’s what I mean when I said angels can’t sin; good angels (the ones who chose God) of course can no longer ‘fall from grace’ and become demons, despite what some comics or movies might imply. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but you might say that fallen angels currently do not ‘sin’ either if by ‘sin’ you imply the possibility that they might repent - since their wills are now fixed on evil anyway. There’s no chance that a demon right now could repent and become a ‘good’ angel.

(I have an honest question myself to other folks here: if ‘sin’ means (as per one definition) an act which impairs one’s connection with God, can we say that demons - who have already severed their connection with God - currently commit sin?)

This also goes for my second question, based on this latest quote of yours: if Angels sinned (by pride and envy) then does that also mean that other people who are now in heaven (our loved ones, the saints…) can possibly sin up there and get booted out? And since those angels sinned, then why didn’t heaven change like the Earth did when sin entered it?

This brings us again to the issue of the probation of the angels.

You apparently think that the angels were literally in Heaven during their creation, and that the fallen angels were literally booted out of there. But that’s not really the case according to theologians. When the angels were first created, they were not in Heaven per se. Instead, the angels were originally in what theologians call ‘probation’.

The exact nature of the probation is unknown, but it is often likened to a ‘trial’ or ‘test’ by God to see what His creations would choose. In that respect, angels are similar to us humans in that they first had to ‘earn’ their way to Heaven; they were not in Heaven yet. They had to want to be in Heaven in order to be there. So at the end of said probation, those good angels who chose God attained Heaven, while the bad angels who rejected God did not.

I think that the closest thing we humans have to this probation of angels is our current life here on Earth. When we die, we would be forever fixed in whatever state we have chosen in our lifetimes. Just like angels and demons after the probation. That’s why the people who are now in Heaven can no longer ‘fall’, nor can people in Hell ‘climb up’ to Heaven: their wills are permanently fixed either to love God or to hate Him.

So when Scripture says of Satan being thrown out of heaven, it does not literally mean that he and the angels who sided with him were ‘physically’ in Heaven and that they got their butts kicked and fell down to the earth. Rather it’s better to understand that as symbolic language that tries to explain the event in a easy way we humans could understand. It’s kind of like the idea that Heaven is literally a place somewhere up in the clouds (maybe beyond the stars), and that Hell is literally somewhere beneath the Earth’s crust. They’re both literally in neither location, but we say that Heaven is ‘above’ and Hell is ‘below’ anyway because it’s generally easier for us, with our limited minds, to grasp that.

(In fact it’s better to think of ‘Heaven’ and ‘Hell’ as being more like states of being rather than purely geographical locations: Heaven of course means being with God perpetually and beholding the Beatific Vision, and Hell being an eternal separation from God. So when we say that Satan and his lackeys ‘fell’, it means more that they got their just deserts and was ‘cut off’ from God as punishment. Hey, that’s what they wanted.)

P.S. Theology isn’t really my forte, so if I misstated something, somebody please correct me.

 

[Kaninchen]

On the other hand . . . the Anunni fell out with the sky god An and ended up judges of the Sumerian Underworld.

 

[patrick457]

On the other hand . . . the Anunni fell out with the sky god An and ended up judges of the Sumerian Underworld.

And in the book of Enoch (The Book of the Watchers), Shemihazah/Samyaza and the angels who followed him were punished by being imprisoned “in the valleys of the earth” where they will be kept until the day of their judgment, when they will be “cast into the fire” and eternal torment.

The difference is that the Annunaki are not ‘evil’, they are just chthonic deities (= gods connected with the earth and the underworld rather than the sky). In fact, because the soil suggested both fertility and the grave, it was not unusual that fertility/agricultural gods could also be associated with the underworld. Look at Osiris or the story of Demeter and Persephone.

(I’m curious as to where you get the idea that the Annunaki fell out with An(u) though. You might say that in popular culture, you had this thing going on where gods of the underworld like Hades or Anubis are considered to be ‘evil’ or ‘dark’ - that’s more based on a subconscious connection made between the underworld and the Christian conception of Hell. Historically, the cultures who believed in them did not consider these gods to be ‘evil’. Death/underworld gods are generally stern folk, and some of them look terrifying, but most of them are not really ‘evil’ in any sense. Some of them might be better described as ‘amoral’ or having a ‘blue-orange morality’.)

I should say that this idea present in popular culture of Satan being ‘king of Hell’ has more to do with John Milton than actual theology. (Just as I said earlier: many Christians are not aware that their mental image of the ‘War in Heaven’ is more informed by Paradise Lost.) If anything, Satan is a fellow ‘detainee’. He’s probably like that megalomaniac prisoner who considers himself superior to the other guys in the cell with him.

 

[Kaninchen]

A(I’m curious as to where you get the idea that the Annunaki fell out with An(u) though. You might say that in popular culture, you had this thing going on where gods of the underworld like Hades or Anubis are considered to be ‘evil’ or ‘dark’ - that’s more based on a subconscious connection made between the underworld and the Christian conception of Hell. Historically, the cultures who believed in them did not consider these gods to be ‘evil’. Death/underworld gods are generally stern folk, and some of them look terrifying, but most of them are not ‘evil’.)

It’s in one of the Sumerian texts - it wasn’t a good/evil thing, if I remember, they just got miffed for some reason and went to join Inanna’s Underworld-self (Ereshkigal) and the shades of the Sumerian fading-away Underworld.