Satan or Lucifer?

  • Thread starter Thread starter BrooklynBoy200
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

BrooklynBoy200

Guest
When Satan was an angel, was his name Satan or Lucifer?
And was he an archangel?
 
Well, “names” of Angels are always taken to be sort of symbolic human representations of them, because apparently their true “name,” their true unique nature is not speakable in words.

But, generally, when you are seeing Christian writing, theology, symbolism, literature, etc, yes, it is “Lucifer” before the fall, and “Satan” afterwards…

Was he an “archangel”…well it depends what you mean. In traditional angelology there are archangels (lower-case a) who are the second lowest choir, and then there are Archangels (capital A) meaning a very high ranking angel (likely a seraph)

There have been widely divergent opinions over the years on this by many theologians, but the common understanding has come to be that not only was Lucifer an Archangel, but the highest angel of them all, the chief Seraph, the highest created nature (until the human nature of Christ, perhaps).
 
BrooklynBoy200 said:
When Satan was an angel, was his name Satan or Lucifer?
And was he an archangel?
Click to expand...
Traditionally, his proper name is Lucifer.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?

Traditionally, he is seen as one of God numerous cherubim.

Eze 28:14 Thou a cherub stretched out, and protecting, and I set thee in the holy mountain of God, thou hast walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

Cherubim are lower than Seraphim. And Seraphim are surrounding God’s throne.
 
Satan also means adversary, but not in an evil sense… more in a legal court prosecuter sense.

To my mind a question arises whether the devil and satan are one in the same …angel.

The devil being the fallen angel.
The other a good angel with the title of Satan, but with a thankless job - from a human perspective.
 
Something spotted earlier…

*Michelle Arnold
Catholic Answers Apologist Join Date: May 3, 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,375

Re: Can the devil change?
Satan and the fallen angels cannot change because they are angels and angelic beings are pure spirits. Humans are embodied spirits, subject to the laws of created time, and so can change. Because of their purely spiritual nature and their superior intelligence, the angels made a definitive choice either for God or against him. Those who chose for God are in heaven with him; those who chose against God cast themselves into hell. The fallen angels cannot repent (just as the angels in heaven cannot now fall). This means that the fallen angels, including Satan, cannot repent, be saved, or go to heaven. *

I’m not convinced of this…
"The fallen angels cannot repent (just as the angels in heaven cannot now fall). "
At least not for the reasons given.
Angels in Heaven can still fall. Fallen angels, Ive been told are incapable of repenting. This was their punishment for rebelling. The capacity for basically saying sorry was removed from them by God.
This stops them repenting, which in turn halts forgiveness.
 
BrooklynBoy200 said:
When Satan was an angel, was his name Satan or Lucifer?
And was he an archangel?
Click to expand...
I don’t believe they are the same being. My experience is that they are two different beings, with Lucifer being “lower” in status than Satan. I’ve heard allusions that Lucifer was a Seraphim and some that say he was a cheribum.

Frankly, there’s not enough information available to us to make definitive statements either way.

Peace…

MW
 
Annatar said:
Angels in Heaven can still fall. Fallen angels, Ive been told are incapable of repenting. This was their punishment for rebelling. The capacity for basically saying sorry was removed from them by God.
This stops them repenting, which in turn halts forgiveness.
Click to expand...
No one in heaven, beholding the beatific vision, can fall. They have freedom to do all that it is possible for them to do, but in the immediate presence of God, it is not possible for anyone to sin.

Also, the reason fallen angels cannot repent is due to their nature, not because God is punishing them. Angels are pure spirit and a purely spiritual being is not limited by change. Humans can repent because they are embodied spirits. Bodies are material and subject to change. Because humans can change, they could repent, which means that God could offer to them salvation.

At death, which is the separation of body and soul, human choice for or against God becomes permanent. Those who choose God cannot again fall and those who choose against him cannot then repent.

Recommended reading:

What Spirits Are and What They Aren’t by Frank Sheed
 
Michelle_Arnold said:
No one in heaven, beholding the beatific vision, can fall. They have freedom to do all that it is possible for them to do, but in the immediate presence of God, it is not possible for anyone to sin.

Also, the reason fallen angels cannot repent is due to their nature, not because God is punishing them. Angels are pure spirit and a purely spiritual being is not limited by change. Humans can repent because they are embodied spirits. Bodies are material and subject to change. Because humans can change, they could repent, which means that God could offer to them salvation.

At death, which is the separation of body and soul, human choice for or against God becomes permanent. Those who choose God cannot again fall and those who choose against him cannot then repent.

Recommended reading:

What Spirits Are and What They Aren’t by Frank Sheed
Click to expand...
“No one in heaven, beholding the beatific vision, can fall. They have freedom to do all that it is possible for them to do, but in the immediate presence of God, it is not possible for anyone to sin.”
I would say the same, but the angel now known as the devil, would have seen the same beatific vision.
(That fallen angel is mostly seen as being the highest ranked angel in Heaven at the time - in which case if he didnt see God, none of the rest of the angels would either.)

That being the case, how and why did he rebel???
 
Michelle_Arnold said:
…
Also, the reason fallen angels cannot repent is due to their nature, not because God is punishing them. Angels are pure spirit and a purely spiritual being is not limited by change. Humans can repent because they are embodied spirits. Bodies are material and subject to change. Because humans can change, they could repent, which means that God could offer to them salvation.
Click to expand...
So you say an Angel cannot change…???
So God created the Angel that is the Devil precorrupted???
or
was that angel, good and rightous, but CHANGED and fell into evil?
Which inturn means Angels CAN change…
 
Annatar said:
So you say an Angel cannot change…???
So God created the Angel that is the Devil precorrupted???
or
was that angel, good and rightous, but CHANGED and fell into evil?
Which inturn means Angels CAN change…
Click to expand...
My thought on this, Annatar, is that there was one specific time period (although time doesn’t exist in Heaven like it does here) where the angels were given a choice - to be loyal to God or to rebel. That choice was irrevocable. It was made and cannot be reversed.

The Devil was not precorrupted. I believe that when God was unveiling his plans for mankind to the angels, that the Devil chose to rebel and many others with him because the Devil was jealous that God’s plan for mankind involved the ability to know and choose good and evil and participate in the plan of salvation.

Jesus did not die for angels. He died for us.

Peace…

MW
 
Mystic_Warrior said:
My thought on this, Annatar, is that there was one specific time period (although time doesn’t exist in Heaven like it does here) where the angels were given a choice - to be loyal to God or to rebel. That choice was irrevocable. It was made and cannot be reversed.

The Devil was not precorrupted. I believe that when God was unveiling his plans for mankind to the angels, that the Devil chose to rebel and many others with him because the Devil was jealous that God’s plan for mankind involved the ability to know and choose good and evil and participate in the plan of salvation.

Jesus did not die for angels. He died for us.

Peace…

MW
Click to expand...
Nor do i believe he was created precorrupted, sotaspeak.

But the specific time for choosing sides, being loyal/rebelling… I cant say as I have ever heard of Biblical sources to support this.

Curiouser n curiouser!
 
Annatar said:
Nor do i believe he was created precorrupted, sotaspeak.

But the specific time for choosing sides, being loyal/rebelling… I cant say as I have ever heard of Biblical sources to support this.

Curiouser n curiouser!
Click to expand...
That’s because there are none. I gleaned this from writings outside of Scripture and Tradition. They were extra-canonical texts that I believe had their source in Jewish folklore. As a matter of fact, I believe there was a thread here where I read it.

Peace…

MW
 
Annatar said:
“No one in heaven, beholding the beatific vision, can fall. They have freedom to do all that it is possible for them to do, but in the immediate presence of God, it is not possible for anyone to sin.”

I would say the same, but the angel now known as the devil, would have seen the same beatific vision.
(That fallen angel is mostly seen as being the highest ranked angel in Heaven at the time - in which case if he didnt see God, none of the rest of the angels would either.)

That being the case, how and why did he rebel???
Click to expand...
Lucifer did not have the beatific vision. He like Adam and Eve needed to be tested first. My guess on the specific act that caused him whom we now call Satan to fall was his inducing Eve to sin. (That’s just my own personal speculation. I could well be way off base.) *Why *did he rebel? Well…One answer to that is the mystery of iniquity…There is no ultimate explanation for why any one - man or angel - defies God. It is that individual’s choice. That’s it. End of story.

If what you’re looking for reasons that contributed to his fall, I would list them, as others have noted, primarily as his pre-occupation with being equal to or above God. Again, my guess is that he was made aware of the impending creation of man, the fact that man, in the end, would be higher than the angels in spite of their original inferior state in relation to the angels…He said, “Non servum” and took it from there…

shrug

SK
 
Annatar said:
Satan also means adversary, but not in an evil sense… more in a legal court prosecuter sense.

To my mind a question arises whether the devil and satan are one in the same …angel.

The devil being the fallen angel.
The other a good angel with the title of Satan, but with a thankless job - from a human perspective.
Click to expand...
Whence comes the belief that “adversary” is not meant in an evil sense?

And what of Jesus’ comment that he saw Satan “fall” like lightening? What do you make of this?

SK
 
Annatar said:
I’m not convinced of this…
"The fallen angels cannot repent (just as the angels in heaven cannot now fall). "
At least not for the reasons given.
Angels in Heaven can still fall. Fallen angels, Ive been told are incapable of repenting. This was their punishment for rebelling. The capacity for basically saying sorry was removed from them by God.
This stops them repenting, which in turn halts forgiveness.
Click to expand...
God’s not that vindictive.

It’s been said that if the gates of hell were ever unlocked, no one would leave. Fallen angels cannot now repent not because God “took that option away from them”, not because He “pulled the device out of them” that would have allowed them to do so out of anger for what they did, but because of the very nature of their decision. While man is both spirit and material being, angels are pure spirit and, therefore, not bound to time. The blessing and curse of this is that while we humans generally have 75 years to make a final decision for the Lord, the angels had one single instant. This not mean". Plenty of angels made the right decision and didn’t subsequently have to go through truckloads of tribulation et al. afterward. It just is, again, the nature of angelic (vs. human) life.

Peace,

SK
 
SilentKnight said:
Whence comes the belief that “adversary” is not meant in an evil sense?

And what of Jesus’ comment that he saw Satan “fall” like lightening? What do you make of this?

SK
Click to expand...
As far as Im aware it is not a belief, its fact. Thats what the word means.
What happens to Job kinda highlights what I mean. The Angel who’s title is Satan, looks to be a very much a glass is half empty kinda guy. Always giving the negative to what men can and do…do.
If Satan is the devil, whats he doing back in Heaven again at this time? (although my memory IS hazy on this… i could be wrong)

“And what of Jesus’ comment that he saw Satan “fall” like lightening?”
Just like you seeing Satan and the Devil as one, PERHAPS the translators of the Gospels also basically said, Potatoe - PoTAToe.

All Ive heard and read is the…definition/role of Satan has changed over the years. It was only with the Babylonian exile that the devil was equated to the Satan. All that Dualism nonsense - Ahura Mazda and Ahriman.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top