Satan (real or metaphorical)

[C_Del86]

I believe i made a thread regarding the question involving the existence of Satan and it wasn’t a good thread due to not having that *argument being present. Now, for this thread i want us all to be open minded about HISTORY. History of the church, history of christianity meaning it’s birth from Judaism and also awareness of past religions.

Anyway. I am guy who likes seeing academical, scriptural and logical support in order to make me believe. I admire theology and critical thinking over fundamentalism now… and because of that i TRULY believe in Jesus Christ. You know the Trinity. However, Satan is what i have a hard time believing to be real. He just has 0 of those 3 necessities. I think the logical one is subjective so i won’t give too much about that in concerns of my debates against his existence so i’ll focus on the academics and the scriptures.

1. Academics
   Lets look at the history of the “evil figures” in various religions of BC, all of them had a specific figure representing evil/darkness, however the only BC religion that seem to not have that “evil figure” is Judaism (I’ll get into this more on the scriptural reason).

Next, after taking note on those past bad guys of the BC, lets go forward to the Church when Constantine converted to christianity. Christianity, prior to Constantine’s conversion was a persecuted religion. It was very looked down upon because of course, it was still originally a jewish belief that no one during the time saw any different from judaism except for the fact that Christians believed in the messiah to have come and also be their God in the flesh. But Constantine’s convertion opened and started the rise of christianity out of persecution and into a super power religion. Now, bad side about this is that normally they really protected the Christian religion by eliminating any sort of rival belief. Most pagan like traditions where sort of mixed or replaced by Christianity (the date of christmas for example), what Constantine or the Rome of that time did was take 50% of outside beliefs and modified a bit. From image to doctrine. We can’t deny that as fact because as social science shows people will not just change their gods nor their culture, what will be needed is that the new belief will need recognizable elements so that people would adjust to the culture change. Now lets go back to the previous BC gods, most of Satan’s images were taken from former rivaled gods in order to additionally eliminate it and bring christianity in. During this time, the doctrine of Satan was taken a bit further that anybody who spoke or was not fully agreed by the church where seen as servants of Satan. Heretics… and later on, they were ordered to be killed unless they “confessed” their allegiance to satan. I believe their is a documentary on history channel on the history of Satan, so you can probably find that on you tube to check into this more.

1. Scriptural.

As i said in my first sentence of the academical point, Judaism never believed in the figure of Satan. Sure their was a Satan in the book of Job, and the other areas of the OT but he was never detailed as evil in the OT nor was he even looked to as a demon but an angel still working for God. Because everything he did in the OT was out of permission from God, so therefore that doesn’t show or sum up the rebellious father of evil that we know today. If you study Judaism, Satan is not evil to them but an angel who still is with god and is in charged of doing the dirty work or the one god uses in doing his tests. Remember, Satan just means “the accuser” and the relationship between God and Satan in those books was more of like the Judge and the accuser. The serpent in the Garden of eden is also debated by many christian scholars to be the Satan as popularly believed in traditional dogma, because no where in the Bible does it say directly that the serpent is Satan and St Augustine said it himself that the Genesis is not to be taken literally.

So there is nothing good with in the OT that shows the Satan that is traditionally believed today. But what about the NEW? Jesus talked about Satan, so did the apostles… the thing is, with Judaisms history still remaining in the factor how safe is it to say that all the stuff about Satan was a literate description of a being? The jews could not just suddenly believe the Satan-being unless they were influenced a bit from Zoroaster --the guy who actually taught the existence of a supreme being for good and a supreme being for evil-- because that belief is not of their religion as the OT shows.

Eventhough their have been Christians (Protestants to Catholic) who have tried to make reason by still insisting that Satan was still being described and taught as the prince of Evil in the book of Job and the rest of the OT, the matter of the fact is that isn’t true. He wasn’t believed or described to be evil in the OT, every verse in their showed that he was one of God’s workers and those stories are still opened to being metaphorical stories.

So because of these two factors, i have high doubts and disagreements on the existence of Satan. I am 70% on the belief that Satan is a metaphor for our negative sides, our animalistic nature (since we are scientifically still animals) that we enhance and over shadow against our humanity --our moral nature (the nature and laws that God wrote in our souls so that we would have a great distinction between his other creations on earth).

 

[Carolus_Martell]

The church says he’s real and that’s good enough for me. I know that’s not what your looking for but that’s the way it is with most of us believers. After all, when you start questioning Genesis there’s no end to it and the final result is the chaos of today’s world.

 

[R_C]

Nope. Satan is a spirit in nature, who in his angelic office was called Lucifer, and received the name “adversary” after the test the angels were put through. Those angels (by nature, spirits) who rebelled with him, at the Fall, are now often referred to as “demons” or “evil spirits”. The angels who remained faithful to God (two thirds of the heavenly hosts, I recall) are also called holy angels and were admitted to the Beatific Vision.

All of this is Christian teaching that is millennia old. Any attempt to negate them or to make them appear as merely metaphorical is a grave error and an intolerable heresy. Specifically regarding the existence of invisible pure spirits, such as angels and demons, there is no possibility of mistake: their existence is fully scriptural, witnessed by the very words and deeds of the Lord, taught by the apostles, and accounted by all Church Fathers. The current work of Satan and the fallen angels in the world is revealed, among many ways, when validly ordained priests of Holy Church abjure and cast demons away from places or people whom they have ascertained as being directly disturbed by them, that is, beyond natural explanations, as well as physical or psychological illness. Especially for what are known as infestations the metaphor theory falls apart as ludicrous, since objects and places cannot sin…

The great deception of Satan is to hide himself in the modern times, and when Antichrist will arrive, Satan will be so well-hidden that truly few will consider that his great signs and wonders are of demonic origin.

Sure, there is an intrinsic relationship between Satan and his works, that is, sin. No doubt, Satan and the fallen angel are not intrinsically evil: the good Lord did not create anything evil, but all was created very good. By their works they have deprived themselves of goodness and imbued themselves of evil, thus one can argue that we see the adversary at work wherever we see sin, though often (if not always) sin is directly the result of our actions, and only indirectly of his temptations.

I advice you study more the Sacred Tradition on these topics, which of course will be difficult since the starting point of the protestant heresy is the denial of the Magisterium - which in turn is a rejection of the Lord who told His apostles: “those who hear you hear me, those who reject you reject me” and “I have many more things to tell you, but you are not ready to bear them now; But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it to you.” This is the essence of Sacred Tradition, even though Sacred Scripture is more than sufficient to discern the true existence of spirits. Or do you think it was metaphorical when the apostle describes archangel Michael and Satan fighting over the body of Moses, or when the Lord reveals that He saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning?

Quia non est nobis conluctatio adversus carnem et sanguinem, sed adversus principes et potestates, adversus mundi rectores tenebrarum harum, contra spiritalia nequitiae in caelestibus. (Ephesios 6:12)

 

[chimo]

Satan is as real as you and I. The problem today is understanding this reality to our own benefit and even if you can say curiousity. First let me say this angel as are all the other disobedients angels are in constant torment because they had refused God’s acceptance of His Grace. Their torment is a real as hell itself but this torment is something they had impose on themselves. It is interesting they can hide this torment from us. For this is what they do. The devil is the great imposter and the grand illusionist. He hides his fear of you and of God by puttng on this front he is control of himself. The opposite is true for he is afraid all the time. That he hides this from us is one of his illusions.

God uses the devils and only gives them certain parimeters to work with. For instance their normal activity of temptation is allowed. If they go after figures like Job or Jesus or the saints of the Eastern and Westen Churches they are given permission to do more. Remember Paul’s words in his epistle that no temptation is stronger than what you can handle. There is always a way out. God would never send to us something we cannot be able to handle. But man is weak and God’s Mercy and Compassion can be brought in.

The devil cannot stand to be found out. He is actually the great coward so to defeat him is very easy. Now I am referring to those who are beginning their spriritual journey from their younger years. When you ignore him this is the tactic of the saints. If the Tempter is too strong for you to handle then go to someone more spiritual than you and reveal the temptation. Once the secret is out the temptation loses its power and so does the devil. He cannot stand when you reveal to others what he is up to. He scrams for the nearest exit when spotted out. It seems he does not like group therapy! He is a fantastic liar and illusionist so deal with him by understanding these truths. St. Augustine had written when we are afraid of him the devil become a giant! But when we learn to dispise him he becomes a dwarf and what can a dwarf do to you. The only power the devil has is the power you give him.

God wants you to face your adversary so that your growth in sanctity can begin. By defeating your adversary you are winning sanctity for yourself. Trials of life are there to prove your faithfulness before God.

 

[Verum1980]

You present several theories here and have thought about it more than me so I will just address a couple of things. I don’t think you are a heretic for wondering or wanting hard-core evidence but sadly, I do think you will be disappointed because you won’t get that, exactly. You can definitely get more answers than you presently have, though. Beginning with your O.T. argument, I believe it is not all literal but that does not make it all null and void, as I am sure you would agree. If you believe in God and that He loves us as His children, you know he would not delight in seeing one of us suffer (as Satan did in Job). So, whatever Satan represented in that story, be it literal or not, it was not a thing that was working for God. God allowed it but did not delight in it; just as He allowed Jesus to be hung on a cross, but did not delight in it. I have not done the in depth historical research that you have done and I am not saying it is irrelevant but I do believe that Satan can use real facts and then add some juicy lies until the two seem to be one. Someone once told me that Satan is a great liar and his greatest lie is that he doesn’t exist.

 

[CatholicRoots]

R_C has summed up the traditional Catholic view very well I would just like to add a few things. C_Del86 your academic arguments don’t seem very true to me, to say because you see Satan as metaphorical in the Old Testament therefore Judaism didn’t have a devil and consequently Christianity must have in turn imported the idea of Satan from Paganism, to me, seems a little unfounded. Here’s why. 1 - Not everyone agrees that the depiction of Satan in the OT was metaphorical, many think it was literal. If you accept it as literal than the OT idea of Satan pre-dated many of these other Pagan similitudes to a devilish figure. And Satan was already an established figure in Judaism. 2 - Even if you think the depiction in the OT was metaphorical and only in Christianity did he take on a concrete existance it doesn’t neccassirly entail your further points. “From image to doctrine.” Just because artistic depictions of Satan may have been extrapolated from Pagan art doesn’t mean that the doctrine was also extrapolated. It’s just art influences other art, simple as that. However, I doubt the early Christians would have let pagan doctrines influence their doctrines. Since doctrinal veracity is vital, artistic depiction can be neither right nor wrong, so of course we can borrow from others art but not from others doctrine. 3 - The NT does talk about Satan in an undeniably literal way, any attempt to see differently seems to be pushing the exegesis of the passages past sensible bounds. For instance in the Jordanian wilderness (< a concrete geographical locale), Jesus (< An actual person) was tempted and taken up by Satan (< a literal figure) to the pinnacle of the temple (< another literal place). It would be odd if Satan in this gospel account was a metaphorical construct whilst all the other things mentioned in the same passge are literal, that would be an absurd way of using metaphor.

Further you could still reply and say that even if the NT does speak about a literal figure how can we be sure that they were right? well I would respond that Our Lord certainly thought he existed, for instance saying that he saw him (Satan - fallen Angel) cast from heaven and again he told Peter that Satan wanted to beat/try him like sheaves (I think it was sheaves ). So if you accept Jesus is God how could he be wrong about Satan otherwise this would be a denial of his omniscience and therefore a rejection of his deity? Not to mention all the Magesterial tradition that says the Devil is real. It’s good that you are questioning stuff and I would like to see what conclusions are drawn from this discussion, especially from yourself.

(ADDITIONALLY - I would like to know what you think this passage in Revelation means if you think that the Serpant in Gensis doesn’t represent the Devil/Satan and that he is a metaphor. “The great dragon, the primeval serpent, known as the Devil or Satan, who had led all the world astray, (< because he made Adam fall from Eden) was hurled down to earth and his angels were hurled down with him.” (Rev. 12:9)

(ONE MORE THING… HOPEFULLY - You make some connections with other religions, which is good that you are dialoguing with what other traditions say. For instance you say that the idea of the devil could be taken from Zoroaster. Though I think many of your connections to be tenuous, for instance the evil one in Zoroastrianism (if I’m not mistaken in the little I know about the religion) is just as powerful as the benevolent god and they’re locked in constant battle, because it is a DUALISTIC religion that thinks both as powerful as each other. This does not resemble the Satan of Christianity, who is infinitesimally less powerful than the infinite Trinity. Since Satan can only do what God permits him.

 

[1ke]

We are not free to believe the devil (a.k.a. Satan) is metaphorical:

CCC 391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”. The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.”

 

[C_Del86]

You present several theories here and have thought about it more than me so I will just address a couple of things. I don’t think you are a heretic for wondering or wanting hard-core evidence but sadly, I do think you will be disappointed because you won’t get that, exactly. You can definitely get more answers than you presently have, though. Beginning with your O.T. argument, I believe it is not all literal but that does not make it all null and void, as I am sure you would agree. If you believe in God and that He loves us as His children, you know he would not delight in seeing one of us suffer (as Satan did in Job). So, whatever Satan represented in that story, be it literal or not, it was not a thing that was working for God. God allowed it but did not delight in it; just as He allowed Jesus to be hung on a cross, but did not delight in it. I have not done the in depth historical research that you have done and I am not saying it is irrelevant but I do believe that Satan can use real facts and then add some juicy lies until the two seem to be one. Someone once told me that Satan is a great liar and his greatest lie is that he doesn’t exist.

Lets get somethings for remembering first

In terms of the OT and because of the OT

• The Jews do not believe Satan to be the “fallen angel” as believed by traditional christianity, to them they believe Satan is still an angel of God. It’s not just in Job either but in the other books of the OT where Satan was doing his work under the command of God. That alone is contradictory to the traditional christian dogma of Satan because as we see in the OT, Satan was not rebelling he was not disobeying or causing evil, he was doing what his job was. An accuser/challenger. So because of the OT, the jews believe that Satan isn’t that lord of evil being but still one of the faithful servants of God.

Next. Historically, the concept of a being of evil does not originate in Judaism, reread my part where it originates. And this is important because almost 90% of our beliefs are rooted from Judaism.

 

[C_Del86]

youtube.com/watch?v=a5mYFJ4irxM&lch=email_reply&lc=p_yLVtARR_MDTp6XdjsvQ1YxBLbQg5WAvAlF2gwtRX0&feature=em-comment_reply_received&lcor=1

 

[C_Del86]

Satan is as real as you and I. The problem today is understanding this reality to our own benefit and even if you can say curiousity. First let me say this angel as are all the other disobedients angels are in constant torment because they had refused God’s acceptance of His Grace. Their torment is a real as hell itself but this torment is something they had impose on themselves. It is interesting they can hide this torment from us. For this is what they do. The devil is the great imposter and the grand illusionist. He hides his fear of you and of God by puttng on this front he is control of himself. The opposite is true for he is afraid all the time. That he hides this from us is one of his illusions.

God uses the devils and only gives them certain parimeters to work with. For instance their normal activity of temptation is allowed. If they go after figures like Job or Jesus or the saints of the Eastern and Westen Churches they are given permission to do more. Remember Paul’s words in his epistle that no temptation is stronger than what you can handle. There is always a way out. God would never send to us something we cannot be able to handle. But man is weak and God’s Mercy and Compassion can be brought in.

The devil cannot stand to be found out. He is actually the great coward so to defeat him is very easy. Now I am referring to those who are beginning their spriritual journey from their younger years. When you ignore him this is the tactic of the saints. If the Tempter is too strong for you to handle then go to someone more spiritual than you and reveal the temptation. Once the secret is out the temptation loses its power and so does the devil. He cannot stand when you reveal to others what he is up to. He scrams for the nearest exit when spotted out. It seems he does not like group therapy! He is a fantastic liar and illusionist so deal with him by understanding these truths. St. Augustine had written when we are afraid of him the devil become a giant! But when we learn to dispise him he becomes a dwarf and what can a dwarf do to you. The only power the devil has is the power you give him.

God wants you to face your adversary so that your growth in sanctity can begin. By defeating your adversary you are winning sanctity for yourself. Trials of life are there to prove your faithfulness before God.

This isn’t scriptural though. No where in the bible does it clearly say Satan was a fallen angel. Sure the whole thing in Revelations is there but how many take the Revelations as literate now especially with all the research that has been given since it’s canonization? We all know right now that 666 from the Revelations is indeed Nero making the book of Revelation too much into metaphorical grandeur almost.

 

[chimo]

This isn’t scriptural though. No where in the bible does it clearly say Satan was a fallen angel. Sure the whole thing in Revelations is there but how many take the Revelations as literate now especially with all the research that has been given since it’s canonization? We all know right now that 666 from the Revelations is indeed Nero making the book of Revelation too much into metaphorical grandeur almost.

Jesus said in the Gospels that He saw the devil fell like lightening. Indeed this fallen angel is scriptural. When Jesus stated these words He is referring to the high sanctity He gave to ALL the angels from their very beginnng and some of them went against their high calling and immediately lost their place in Heaven. It is also stated in Revelation that war broke out in Heaven and the devil did battle with the other angels and Michael the Archangel came out to defeat him and became victorious. It is also said in Scripture that this main devil called Lucifer took with him a third of the angels with him for the scriptures said a third of them was swept with his tail.

In the book of Isaiah we also read about Lucifer given the name Morning Star. “How you have fallen from heaven, o morning star, son of the dawn. You have been cast down to the earth. You who once laid low the nations. You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will set enthroned on the mount of assembly…I will make myself like the Most High. But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.” St. Paul refers to the fallen angels when he had written in his epistle that we do not wrestle with flesh and blood (that is man but we do wrestle with what is evil in man) but with Principalities, Thrones and Dominions on high (that is these fallen angels who now war against us.

If you want non scriptural statements then look to the saints of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches who can testify on the existence of the devil. If you want further proof then read the Diary of St. Maria Faustina for she writes a lot about her experiences with our Lord Jesus and also the devil who shows up a lot trying to persuade her not to continue with this book which she has written expounding on the great Mercy and Love of God.

 

[CatholicRoots]

“Sure the whole thing in Revelations is there but how many take the Revelations as literate” C_Del86 everytime we supply you with Biblical citations you say ‘well who takes this literally’, well of course you can deny everything as mere metaphor but that’s your interpretation not neccessarily what the texts say themselves; nor how the Church or the mass of Catholics read/interpret them. Plus the quotations given of what Our Lord said seem undeniable.

 

[EricFilmer]

Lets get somethings for remembering first

In terms of the OT and because of the OT

• The Jews do not believe Satan to be the “fallen angel” as believed by traditional christianity, to them they believe Satan is still an angel of God. It’s not just in Job either but in the other books of the OT where Satan was doing his work under the command of God. That alone is contradictory to the traditional christian dogma of Satan because as we see in the OT, Satan was not rebelling he was not disobeying or causing evil, he was doing what his job was. An accuser/challenger. So because of the OT, the jews believe that Satan isn’t that lord of evil being but still one of the faithful servants of God.

But the Jews do not have a developed sense of God’s revelation, at least not from our Christian perspective. For example, they do not believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. If they can be wrong about the person of the Messiah, they can certainly be wrong about the person of an angelic being.

The Old Testament represents a long period in theological development. For example, the notion of heaven being a place with includes humans did not initially exist in Judaism. This is why the early OT period refers to everyone ending up as a type of mindless shadow in the afterlife (the good & bad alike). Over the course of the OT period, the idea of an afterlife developed involving Paradise (i.e., the Bosom of Abraham) for the righteous as well as the Pit for the wicked. Theology also developed within the OT period from the idea of existing forever as a shadow into a theology involving the resurrection of the body.

My point here is to propose that the OT treatment of Satan reflects an incomplete understanding of him. The theology involving the devil had not developed yet. He was always a bad guy (at least after his fall from grace), but it took a while for God’s revelation to develop that understanding among humans. Jesus, however, sets the record straight when declaring that Satan was "a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44) .

To use an earthly parallel, lots of people initially thought Ted Bundy was a swell guy. For example, we can examine the sort of comments made about him by co-workers and fellow college students before he was arrested for murder (the people who knew otherwise didn’t live to tell about it). By all accounts, he was a clean-cut law student and a model citizen. After his arrest and conviction people declared him to be a horrible serial killer. Obviously, he was always a psychopath, and his personal testimonies eventually bore this out. Naturally, it would be erroneous for someone to suggest that Bundy may have actually been a swell guy all along because the earliest comments made about him said nothing about him being a demented serial killer. The same could be said concerning the evil nature of Satan.

So because of these two factors, i have high doubts and disagreements on the existence of Satan. I am 70% on the belief that Satan is a metaphor for our negative sides, our animalistic nature (since we are scientifically still animals) that we enhance and over shadow against our humanity --our moral nature (the nature and laws that God wrote in our souls so that we would have a great distinction between his other creations on earth).

Jesus said, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven” (Luke 10:18, RSV). Exactly how does a metaphor fall like lightning from heaven? However one tries to interpret what the Bible means by the term “Satan”, Jesus tells us that Satan was initially in heaven and then fell from it. Therefore, Satan had to be a being who was once good (or he couldn’t have been in heaven to begin with) and then became bad (or he wouldn’t have fallen). This rules out the possibility of Satan simply being the negative, animalistic nature of humans, because such a nature could not be in heaven to begin with.

 

[Kevin_B]

I agree with Dante’s version of Satan. He exists, but is imprisoned in hell.

One reason I believe this is because I believe any God who would allow a creature like Satan to influence mankind does not deserve worship from anyone.

I think the devil is just an excuse people use who don’t want to be responsible for their own actions.

 

[St_Redemption]

The evidences to me are as follows 1) The Gospels record Jesus as talking about him 2) The evidence of exorcisms. Not all of course. As I’ve said in another thread, there is a lot of sensationalism and fiction going on in this arena but there are also exorcists who are good men and whom have performed these exorcisms their entire lives; I do not believe that they are all lying. I have a fascination with the topic and have read hundreds of accounts. Some of these exorcists are men of the cloth with great integrity. Demons indeed to reference Satan, or their “master” during these ceremonies. 3) It makes sense that since we as a species of free will have separated ourselves from God; it seems plausible that angels might do the same.

 

[St_Redemption]

I agree with Dante’s version of Satan. He exists, but is imprisoned in hell.

One reason I believe this is because I believe any God who would allow a creature like Satan to influence mankind does not deserve worship from anyone.

I think the devil is just an excuse people use who don’t want to be responsible for their own actions.

God allows us free will. A gift which he has extended to all of the sentient creatures of His creation. It is up to us to use that free will to reject evil and to come to Him. He will not force it upon us. Since love and Faith do not work coercively, we have to choose ourselves.

 

[C_Del86]

Jesus said in the Gospels that He saw the devil fell like lightening. Indeed this fallen angel is scriptural. When Jesus stated these words He is referring to the high sanctity He gave to ALL the angels from their very beginnng and some of them went against their high calling and immediately lost their place in Heaven. It is also stated in Revelation that war broke out in Heaven and the devil did battle with the other angels and Michael the Archangel came out to defeat him and became victorious. It is also said in Scripture that this main devil called Lucifer took with him a third of the angels with him for the scriptures said a third of them was swept with his tail.

In the book of Isaiah we also read about Lucifer given the name Morning Star. “How you have fallen from heaven, o morning star, son of the dawn. You have been cast down to the earth. You who once laid low the nations. You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will set enthroned on the mount of assembly…I will make myself like the Most High. But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.” St. Paul refers to the fallen angels when he had written in his epistle that we do not wrestle with flesh and blood (that is man but we do wrestle with what is evil in man) but with Principalities, Thrones and Dominions on high (that is these fallen angels who now war against us.

If you want non scriptural statements then look to the saints of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches who can testify on the existence of the devil. If you want further proof then read the Diary of St. Maria Faustina for she writes a lot about her experiences with our Lord Jesus and also the devil who shows up a lot trying to persuade her not to continue with this book which she has written expounding on the great Mercy and Love of God.

“The angel falling from lightning out of heaven” could be metaphorical, lets take in note the meaning of Satan, Lightning, and also Heaven. from Greek to english…

The verse in Isiah is also about King Uziah, not actually Satan. There is a high invalid information in your post because theologically speaking, those references you gave especially the Isiah reference isn’t actually about Satan.

 

[C_Del86]

The evidences to me are as follows 1) The Gospels record Jesus as talking about him 2) The evidence of exorcisms. Not all of course. As I’ve said in another thread, there is a lot of sensationalism and fiction going on in this arena but there are also exorcists who are good men and whom have performed these exorcisms their entire lives; I do not believe that they are all lying. I have a fascination with the topic and have read hundreds of accounts. Some of these exorcists are men of the cloth with great integrity. Demons indeed to reference Satan, or their “master” during these ceremonies. 3) It makes sense that since we as a species of free will have separated ourselves from God; it seems plausible that angels might do the same.

The problem with exorcism reports is that we are not fully sure if those reports are real. Second, we’ve “seen” various “recordings” of exorcisms done in different faiths. From Islam, Hindu, to other relgions… all of them have managed to “drive out demons” under the name of a different god.

As for the First one, Jesus could be taking metaphorically. I want you all to jump into theology instead of biblical fundamentalism. I find it better if one can equip his faith with a good academical basis along with scripture and using verses only isn’t as satisfying given the actual translations.

I do have a small assumption on evil spirits. I kind of assume that those “evil spirits” that are reported to do possession are the souls of negative people who were not permitted into going into heaven due to certain negatives that they can’t just let go off. Suppose some guy who had a sort of anger towards god dies and chooses not to live in heaven due to the negatives he has in his soul. He is not evil enough to go to hell or heaven nor does he have any desire to be purged out of the negative energy in purgatory, therefore he/she remains as a spirit on earth. Negative energy.

 

[St_Redemption]

The problem with exorcism reports is that we are not fully sure if those reports are real. Second, we’ve “seen” various “recordings” of exorcisms done in different faiths. From Islam, Hindu, to other relgions… all of them have managed to “drive out demons” under the name of a different god.

As for the First one, Jesus could be taking metaphorically. I want you all to jump into theology instead of biblical fundamentalism. I find it better if one can equip his faith with a good academical basis along with scripture and using verses only isn’t as satisfying given the actual translations.

I do have a small assumption on evil spirits. I kind of assume that those “evil spirits” that are reported to do possession are the souls of negative people who were not permitted into going into heaven due to certain negatives that they can’t just let go off. Suppose some guy who had a sort of anger towards god dies and chooses not to live in heaven due to the negatives he has in his soul. He is not evil enough to go to hell or heaven nor does he have any desire to be purged out of the negative energy in purgatory, therefore he/she remains as a spirit on earth. Negative energy.

I know that we do not have absolute evidence of any exorcisms. But that is why I mentioned that I do in fact without question trust the integrity of many exorcists who have spoken on the topic. Some of these exorcists are incredible nice people of great moral fortitude and I trust their accounts. And I trust the accounts of the other people involved. Of course some have made up stories and lied about these things but there are others whom if you watch them speak…if they are lying then they deserve an Oscar. Tears are flowing down their cheeks and they are very emotional. Second, I do not have a problem with a successful exorcism performed in the name of another Faith provided that the exorcist is a good man who truly believes in God. God still works through these people.

I am not a Biblical literalist, but the context of a lot Jesus’ mention of the Devil can only be interpreted in a very akward and incomplete sense if He was not speaking literally. Not only this, but He performed many exorcisms. To say that these were metaphorical exorcisms is definitely a stretch.

 

[chimo]

“The angel falling from lightning out of heaven” could be metaphorical, lets take in note the meaning of Satan, Lightning, and also Heaven. from Greek to english…

The verse in Isiah is also about King Uziah, not actually Satan. There is a high invalid information in your post because theologically speaking, those references you gave especially the Isiah reference isn’t actually about Satan.

You seem to be a person who has not yet experienced the devil or thinks whatever experiences there is can be explained away. The devil does not usually impose himself on people who thinks he doesn’t exist and for good reason. The devil does not want you to go further into the spiritual life that is to become a saint as we are all called to be so he lets you alone at least for awhile. People such as athiests and so on he dinifintely leaves alone for since they are not ruining his parade why would he ruin theirs.

You want a written expostion about the devil then look no further to the saints of God both Catholic and Orthodox. The devil oftens reveal himself to the saints. I have often experienced his presence. These experiences while worth noted can be disguised at first for he tends sometimes to be subtle and even hiding behind them. Then at times he can be more aggressive and come to you without warning. However if one is very gifted in the spiritual life one can recognize him for what these experiences are for St. Paul writes there is no temptation stronger than what you can handle.

To enter into this spiritual struggle or battle is the cornerstone of our Faith if you desire to be a saint. If you do not want to be a saint this rebellious angel will leave you alone and only engage to you the normal activity we call temptation. His agressiveness though towards those who wish to be saints are not entirely his own initiative. He still needs permission from God to do more. Even the scriptures says “Satan has asked permission to sift you as wheat!” This means the devil cannot go beyond the parameters God has set for him. The devil is always restrained by God only to what God will allow. So in effect God is always in control.

That also means you may not be in control. For the devil who uses a lot of disguises and illusions can decieve or trick you. Once he has you it is going to be difficult for you to engage from his clutches. However God has always a way out no matter what the devil can do and it is here we must address ourselves to if we want to grow to towards the sanctity for which we all called to. Read some of these stories from the saints. Read about Padre Pio and the relentent attacks the devil had imposed on this great saint or Seraphim of Russia’s 1000 straight days he had to do battle with the devils or the great saint fom France the Cure of Ars who had outwitted the devil on many occasions. Read also Maria Faustina’s great struggle with the devil as he personnaly came to call her down as he conversates with her on many occasions. This great saint of Poland had this experience when the devil came to her and said “Oh if only I had power over you!” On another occasion he exploded in the chapel while she was alone praying and took the flowers on the altar and smashed them on the floor. St. Maria Faustina did not know what to do or how to explain this to the sisters so she stepped out for awhile and then decided to come back and noticed the flower pot all neatly back on the altar without any damage.

Another angel, a good angel, put everything back together again. But notice how this devil operates. In secret and always one on one. He never imposes himself on to a group. He hates group therapy!