Satan tossed out of heaven!

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Ok somthing I have been wondering. Heaven is timeless it is eternity and is not even considered to be a place. This does sound logical to me. But then Satan was tossed out something that denotes time once he was there then he was not. Also he was tossed out of somewhere we dont even consider a place. I need help does this makes since?
 
Ok somthing I have been wondering. Heaven is timeless it is eternity and is not even considered to be a place. This does sound logical to me. But then Satan was tossed out something that denotes time once he was there then he was not. Also he was tossed out of somewhere we dont even consider a place. I need help does this makes since?
You’ve grasped one part of the concept (the timelessness and “non-materiality” of heaven), but you are not applying that to the part of the scenario you are questioning.

Once you acknowledge the first concept, it follows that the other concept of Satan being “tossed out” can only be in a manner of speaking, a way to to describe it using human and temporal words, so we humans can discuss it. To be “tossed out” of heaven must mean something else fitting to the type of place or state it is.

Since we humans have not experienced that state (and, indeed, may not have words to express it), “tossing out” may be as close as we can get to expressing it.
 
It’s been speculated that the whole ‘Satan rebelling and being thrown out of heaven’ thing could have happened in a split second. Doesn’t always take a long time, or even much time at all, to make a decision on something. Even on whether or not to serve God and do his will.

As for being ‘thrown out’ of heaven - whoever wrote that is human and thinking in human terms. It’s just shorthand for saying he was excluded from that state of being with God that constitutes heaven (whether or not it’s a physical place).
 
It’s been speculated that the whole ‘Satan rebelling and being thrown out of heaven’ thing could have happened in a split second. Doesn’t always take a long time, or even much time at all, to make a decision on something. Even on whether or not to serve God and do his will.

As for being ‘thrown out’ of heaven - whoever wrote that is human and thinking in human terms. It’s just shorthand for saying he was excluded from that state of being with God that constitutes heaven (whether or not it’s a physical place).
This is an interesting concept. Jesus Himself says “I watched satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Lk: 10:18.
So Jesus Himself seems to imply a place/condition, and it must be visible place, condition.
Grace Angel.
 
This is an interesting concept. Jesus Himself says “I watched satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Lk: 10:18.
So Jesus Himself seems to imply a place/condition, and it must be visible place, condition.
Grace Angel.
That is very interesting too. Because we believe Jesus was there from the beginning.
 
This is an interesting concept. Jesus Himself says “I watched satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Lk: 10:18.
So Jesus Himself seems to imply a place/condition, and it must be visible place, condition.
Grace Angel.
visible to Jesus, who of course IS God, doesn’t have to be visible to everyone!
 
visible to Jesus, who of course IS God, doesn’t have to be visible to everyone!
Here Jesus is speaking figuratively, just as further down in Lc 10,20, He says that their names are writen in the sky or in Heaven. He is speaking to men of his time, in their words so that they can try to understand His meaning.
 
That is very interesting too. Because we believe Jesus was there from the beginning.
In deed we do believe that He was there from the beginning, so is He using His acquired human language to explain it? Could the way He explained (and we would think in the best way available to Him in the vocabulary at that time) give us a clue to what/where/how heaven is? The word “tossed” is interesting too! not shown the way, not removed from heaven but “tossed” . I have often wondered if sin actually closes our inner vision, (the cherub with the flaming sword barring the gateway to eden) so that we “know” that there is something more and wonderful but cannot quite achieve.
I recently heard one of our fantastic Vatican Bishops speak at a conference and he said, speaking on the Holiness of God, that God created each species according to its own kind, and our kind comes from God, is like God, and that is why we are always, looking, seeking and longing for the one after our own kind. That there is a restlessness for our own kind. That is perhaps also why ha Adam, could not find one specieis to suit him because he “ha Adam” is made in the Imago Dei.
Phew!!! I digressed didnt I? :eek: Sorry.:o
Grace Angel.

so that we “know” something but are barred from it. It is the barring which brings with it suffering. Satan’s most awful (for want of a better word) nightmare must be remembering where he was and what he was (a seraph) but never being able to be that again.
 
Satan’s most awful (for want of a better word) nightmare must be remembering where he was and what he was (a seraph) but never being able to be that again.
I am not sure that’s true. Angels, we are told, are creatures of pure intellect, whose wills are entirely united with their intellects; never at war with their reason as is the case with us. If so, then the fallen angels saw with absolute clarity the choice they were making, yet made it against God. In doing so, their choice was made irrevocable, not because God would not forgive them, but because that’s the way angels exercise choice. It is difficult for us to understand something like that, because we are torn all the time between what we know we ought to do and what we will to do and what we actually do. We do not understand with perfect clarity. It is almost impossible for us to imagine a deliberate choice made against union with God for all eternity, and particularly one made by a creature so brilliant that, as one commentator said “if we perceived an angel as it truly is, we would be absolutely convinced that it was God”. It could be reasonably surmised that at the point of choice, there were but two choices; union with God or union only with the angel’s own self. Heaven, then, might rightly be seen as a “mode of being”, i.e., in a union with God that we cannot fully understand but which angels understood. Being “tossed from heaven” (Christ put it as a “fall”, being more descriptive of an active separation than a passive separation, like a man letting go of a trapeze) could simply be a change in the “mode of being”. Possibly that change is from a willing union with God to a willing disunion. It seems impossible for us for a smart thing like an angel to willingly separate itself from God, but then, we see smart people do the same thing all the time. Heaven is the eternal contemplation of God; implying a “tapping into” the infinite knowledge, love, happiness and wisdom of God; a resource we can never exhaust. But if angels knew that, how could they give it up in order to contemplate only themselves for all eternity? Perhaps precisely because they did not want a “mode of being” that was dependant on another being, however much greater it is than themselves. Again, that seems incredible. But St. Therese of Lisieux believed that all souls get a shot at Final Penitence, but that those who “volunteer” for hell do so out of a love for themselves so intense that the very idea of forever declaring dependence on God is repulsive. At that moment, such souls declare for the hell of self-love and self-contemplation for all eternity, knowing full well the consequences of that declaration. Hard to picture in a way, but if a person thinks about it long and hard, one can see it; a pride so overwhelming that, to borrow from Milton, it chooses to reign in the hell of its own limitations than to serve in the heaven of a Being upon whom we will always be dependent for our happiness.

So, I am not sure the fallen angels regret their choice, or would go back. They have chosen a way to be, knowing exactly what it was. As their wills are perfectly united to their intellects, one of whose attributes is decision-making, they “never change their minds” because they never WANT to change their minds.

It is not impossible to imagine that we are “like God” in a way different from the way in which angels are “like God”. In this life, we are drawn toward God. We might resist that drawing force, or we might accept it, but we are drawn nevertheless, in a way analogous to the way the Son loves the Father and the Father the Son. Unlike angels, then, in this life we are incapable of truly and irrevocably making the “non-God” choice in the same sort of way the Son cannot reject the Father or the Father the Son. At a point then, if St. Therese is correct, we are capable of seeing the choice clearly and making it irrevocably. After that, we never change our minds.

I do not pretend to be a theologian, but it’s fascinating to think about all of this.
 
I am not sure that’s true. Angels, we are told, are creatures of pure intellect, whose wills are entirely united with their intellects; never at war with their reason as is the case with us. If so, then the fallen angels saw with absolute clarity the choice they were making, yet made it against God. In doing so, their choice was made irrevocable, not because God would not forgive them, but because that’s the way angels exercise choice. It is difficult for us to understand something like that, because we are torn all the time between what we know we ought to do and what we will to do and what we actually do. We do not understand with perfect clarity. It is almost impossible for us to imagine a deliberate choice made against union with God for all eternity, and particularly one made by a creature so brilliant that, as one commentator said “if we perceived an angel as it truly is, we would be absolutely convinced that it was God”. It could be reasonably surmised that at the point of choice, there were but two choices; union with God or union only with the angel’s own self. Heaven, then, might rightly be seen as a “mode of being”, i.e., in a union with God that we cannot fully understand but which angels understood. Being “tossed from heaven” (Christ put it as a “fall”, being more descriptive of an active separation than a passive separation, like a man letting go of a trapeze) could simply be a change in the “mode of being”. Possibly that change is from a willing union with God to a willing disunion. It seems impossible for us for a smart thing like an angel to willingly separate itself from God, but then, we see smart people do the same thing all the time. Heaven is the eternal contemplation of God; implying a “tapping into” the infinite knowledge, love, happiness and wisdom of God; a resource we can never exhaust. But if angels knew that, how could they give it up in order to contemplate only themselves for all eternity? Perhaps precisely because they did not want a “mode of being” that was dependant on another being, however much greater it is than themselves. Again, that seems incredible. But St. Therese of Lisieux believed that all souls get a shot at Final Penitence, but that those who “volunteer” for hell do so out of a love for themselves so intense that the very idea of forever declaring dependence on God is repulsive. At that moment, such souls declare for the hell of self-love and self-contemplation for all eternity, knowing full well the consequences of that declaration. Hard to picture in a way, but if a person thinks about it long and hard, one can see it; a pride so overwhelming that, to borrow from Milton, it chooses to reign in the hell of its own limitations than to serve in the heaven of a Being upon whom we will always be dependent for our happiness.

So, I am not sure the fallen angels regret their choice, or would go back. They have chosen a way to be, knowing exactly what it was. As their wills are perfectly united to their intellects, one of whose attributes is decision-making, they “never change their minds” because they never WANT to change their minds.

It is not impossible to imagine that we are “like God” in a way different from the way in which angels are “like God”. In this life, we are drawn toward God. We might resist that drawing force, or we might accept it, but we are drawn nevertheless, in a way analogous to the way the Son loves the Father and the Father the Son. Unlike angels, then, in this life we are incapable of truly and irrevocably making the “non-God” choice in the same sort of way the Son cannot reject the Father or the Father the Son. At a point then, if St. Therese is correct, we are capable of seeing the choice clearly and making it irrevocably. After that, we never change our minds.

I do not pretend to be a theologian, but it’s fascinating to think about all of this.
Thank you Riddgerunner, I need time to read your post through, it looks very interesting. I liked particularly what you wrote about St Therese and us being capable of seeing the choice clearly and making it irrevocably.
So perhaps that might also mean that at death an individual is given to make a final choice for or against God before he/she walks through the “gate” Jesus or away forever, to be blotted out of mental existence.
I find this things a bit difficult. Can you imagine someone in heaven knowing that their mum, dad, brother, child, friend is forever in hell? Its all difficult stuff isnt it.
thank you for your long post I will probaby read it tonight when there is peace around the household.
GraceAngel.
 
I find this things a bit difficult. Can you imagine someone in heaven knowing that their mum, dad, brother, child, friend is forever in hell? Its all difficult stuff isnt it.
thank you for your long post I will probaby read it tonight when there is peace around the household.
GraceAngel.
Actually those who are in Hell lets say a loved one is there they are there because that is what they want. God Loves them and would never force someone to love him because that would not be true love. When we are in heaven we will see things as God and the angels do. And we will see even if it is a loved one in hell as a just and good thing.
 
Why do you say heaven isn’t a place? Jesus is going to “prepare a place” for us. John saw a “new Heaven and new Earth.” It may not be the same kind of place we are used to, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a place. Heaven is even more real than earth. Just as much more real than our earthly life is than “a dream”. We “believe in the resurrection of the body and life everlasting”. I am working on getting my entry ticket, so it must be a place. Standing in line to get in sure requires patience though…
 
I do not pretend to be a theologian, but it’s fascinating to think about all of this.
Wow - that is alot to think about!

Not sure about not being able to “make the non-God choice in this life” because it seems like we do make this choice a huindred times a day in little ways if that makes sense.

I’ve heard or read that Satan and his legions of followers made this choice at the very instance of creation; God called everything in to being, and they immediately “opted out” as they say.

They say that WE are made in the image of God, but angels are not. I have heard or seen in a movie somewhere, (so it must be true!) that this was a cause of jealousy on the part of the Fallen Angels. That, as humans, we had souls and “were looking for our kind” as someone said, while angels were just created as they are, pure spirit, and intellect.

Is any of that plausible?
 
Actually those who are in Hell lets say a loved one is there they are there because that is what they want. God Loves them and would never force someone to love him because that would not be true love. When we are in heaven we will see things as God and the angels do. And we will see even if it is a loved one in hell as a just and good thing.
I understand that, but from my limited human undestanding it seems to see a time when knowing that a loved one is in turmoil/suffering will sound/believe/think its ok to me.
Have a love day.
GraceAngel.
 
Why do you say heaven isn’t a place? Jesus is going to “prepare a place” for us. John saw a “new Heaven and new Earth.” It may not be the same kind of place we are used to, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a place. Heaven is even more real than earth. Just as much more real than our earthly life is than “a dream”. We “believe in the resurrection of the body and life everlasting”. I am working on getting my entry ticket, so it must be a place. Standing in line to get in sure requires patience though…
Yeah but I believe the Catholic teaching is that is if we have even made it clear or not im not for sure. But a place has a biginning and a end it would be limited. Dont know for sure hopfully someone will let us know.

but Im still having a hard time understanding this. time and space thing
 
Not sure about not being able to “make the non-God choice in this life” because it seems like we do make this choice a huindred times a day in little ways if that makes sense.

I’ve heard or read that Satan and his legions of followers made this choice at the very instance of creation; God called everything in to being, and they immediately “opted out” as they say.

They say that WE are made in the image of God, but angels are not. I have heard or seen in a movie somewhere, (so it must be true!) that this was a cause of jealousy on the part of the Fallen Angels. That, as humans, we had souls and “were looking for our kind” as someone said, while angels were just created as they are, pure spirit, and intellect.

Is any of that plausible?
I don’t know that we can say angels are not like God. “Michael”, after all, means “who is like God”. (JW’s made a whole religion out of that one.) Angels, we understand, have intellect and will and that, if nothing else, is “like God”. Of course, no creature can truly be “like God” in the sense of being identical with Him, or that creature would also be God, which is a logical impossibility. (Can’t be two infinites) A creature can only resemble God in some respect or other.

It is not at all implausible to me that angels made their choices at the very instant of their creation, since, being created whole and complete, they had nothing to learn; nothing to mull over. Certainly, if it is radically true that angels were utterly complete at the moment of their creation, they would not likely be “plugged into” the infinity of God in the same way we hope to be. We would forever be drinkers at the fountain while they got but one huge, and for them complete, draught. Still, one expects them to be magnificent beyond all our powers of imagination. We are given significant hints in the Bible that each angel has its function, peculiar to itself. St. Thomas Aquinas says that. But we have some advantages in thinking about it that St. Thomas did not have; the discoveries of modern times. Since an angel’s essence is its function, I have thought it would be fascinating, after this life, simply to ask an angel its name. I picture the response to be vast beyond comprehension; something like “I am the creature, beloved of the Mighty One, who has been blessed, and yes, charged, with all knowledge of and responsibility for the space-time continuum. Beginning at the most basic level…” then follows equation after equation after physical principle, on and on and on; perhaps for millenia; describing the bending of space and time; for one example; showing its unity with other physical phenomenon and principles and how it intertwines with the Divine Plan; things our most brilliant scientists will never begin to imagine, ever…winding up with “…and it is my joy, unique to me in this way, to thus participate in and be the instrument of His knowledge and creative power in carrying out His will in this respect.” Now, that’s just one angel, and we do not presently perceive them as they truly are, being shielded from it, because if the nature (name) of a single one of them entered our brain we would have a stroke and die in the first nanosecond of the response, if our brains tried to take it in. Anyway, that’s how I think of angels.

Now, fallen angels, we non-theologians can suppose, chose to contemplate themselves as “objects”, not as “verbs”. Perhaps it is not too great a stretch to suppose that we, as potential participants in the “subject” (God) were, in a sense, known by them to be both “lesser” and “greater” than the angels, and it is not totally preposterous to think that might have had something to do with the fallen angels supernova of hatred of God and of us…absurd little mud men being joined into the very Being of God. And worse, (“better” to some) that very God would, in time, voluntarily join His nature to ours in the person of Christ.

Returning to the subject in order to avoid being warned, “place” can mean all sorts of things.
 
Ok somthing I have been wondering. Heaven is timeless it is eternity and is not even considered to be a place. This does sound logical to me. But then Satan was tossed out something that denotes time once he was there then he was not. Also he was tossed out of somewhere we dont even consider a place. I need help does this makes since?
the bible states that, woe to the earth, for the devil has been cast down to you having great anger knowing he has a short period of time. i interpret this to mean that he is literally in the vicinity of the earth, that is why we have so many problems on this planet. i believe Jesus literally cast him out and down to the vicinity of the earth.or maybe it means that he is roving about in the earth having great anger knowing he has a short period of time. i take it to be literal.
 
“I live on this place”-a geographical location. “I know my place”-a status or mode of being. “I am in first place.”-a position in the cosmology of things. But I think we can believe, without fear of being too far wrong, that physical location is relevant. If, indeed, Jesus rose bodily from the dead, and Mary was assumed bodily into heaven, and if the resurrection of the body is a literal reality, then Jesus and Mary now, and we later, will, indeed, occupy physical locations…somewhere. But it has to be understood that a glorified body might be able to occupy the very same space I occupy sitting in my chair. The resurrected Jesus, after all, entered a sealed room where the apostles had hidden themselves after the crucifixion. Atoms are mostly empty space. Perhaps Jesus was able to arrange his atoms so that particles met space and space met particles, allowing him to walk freely through the door or wall. If a glorified body can control its atomic action, it could physically reside within the same space I occupy without breaking a sweat getting it done. Nor could I necessarily distinguish it from the thin air if it so arranged itself that I could not. The physical aspect of heaven might be in the center of a blue giant star, or it could be right here, or even in both simultaneously, in ways we could never fathom. If God granted to a human being sufficient knowledge of the innermost secrets of the universe and sufficient power to wield them, “place” might, to that person, be a wonderous thing indeed. Perhaps what we understand as the limitations of space and time could be simply bypassed. Stephen Hawking theorizes that time travel (and thus nearly simultaneous presence in two places at once) is both possible and impossible. It is possible theoretically, but matter attempting it is destroyed in the process. But must it be?

Anyway, I have talked too long already, and Joe Monahan (did I spell it right that time?) has probably already decided that I wandered pretty far afield. A prayer for Joe, in gratitude for his patience.
 
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