Satanic Ritual Abuse and Jehovah's Witnesses

[Rolltide]

Excaliber,
Your private mailbox is full…

 

[Snow]

Gee Snow,

Running out of articles found at religioustolerance.org to copy and paste?

I normally ignore these types of posts, but maybe you do not know any better. You know, if you dug in and did your own research you might be surprised.

Fine - how many people in the US have been convicted of crimes involving Satanic Ritual Abuse? Exactly?

BTW, the article you copied and pasted was written back in May of 1995. You must have posted a later version, yours has been redacted. The original article stated that portions of it was, by permission, extracted from information sheets provided by the Wiccan Information Network’s Ontario Coordinator.

Took it right off the website moments before I posted it.

It was seriously flawed to begin with. But that is what I expect from that organization. I noticed they have removed many links and tried to clean up their act after their Scientology snafu. They do not allow someone who graduated from lets say, a bible college for fear it would be too biased, yet Bruce A. Robinson, the main writer along with co-writer Al Buttnor did several pieces on Scientology, they have since removed some of the clues, you cannot even get them on google archive now or wayback machine.

It cast them in a bad light when it came out that that Buttnor is, or was still at least in 2006, spokesman for the Church of Scientology in Canada and Director of Public Affairs and Human Rights of the Church of Scientology of Toronto.

I am too tired right now but there have been lawsuits won, even a few members of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, (a syndrome in theory only, not listed in the DSM-IV or recognized in the Scientific Community) have been sued and their victims have won.

You’re not really saying anything. Care to prove that what they wrote - as posted - is wrong?

I couldn’t tell you what a specific individual has really experienced - as nobody else here on this site can tell you what someone else has truly experience but I do know that there is absolutely no reliable evidence for the scurrilous claims of widespread, organized SRA as claimed by some of the nuts like Brown and Stratford.

 

[Snow]

I don’t doubt that something happened to raven…the question is what and by who?

But Jehovahs witnesses putting people in pits with dead snakes and dressing up in robes at bethel…lets just be realistic…
Any Jw reading about it will think someone made it up just to get at the organization…many exjw’s will want to be open minded, but also will find it hard to belive.

Proof of Jehovahs witness involvement is a must here.
Whatever happened, hopefully talking about it helps raven heal.

Agreed - let’s be realistic.

I’d wager that the number of people who believe in widespread SRA is roughly equivalent to the number of people who have seen Elvis in the mall recently.

 

[Auriel]

The further into the past and into secretive groups one goes, the more murky and perplexing everything becomes. I have childhood-connected mental imagery I have no idea what to make of; it was decades ago, in a world of secrets and lies, and experiments, and doubletalk, and is overlaid with layers of later developments in society and in myself, and it’s full of contradictions.

What I can know is that at least a few disturbing people were around me when I was tiny, and I was affected by it. Who did what and what I got from a later suggestion, and what from a monster movie or somewhere else, I may never find out.
Ravyn spent her early years among people who outright reject the opinion of the whole outside world as applying to them and won’t even take part in political life. If secrets exist in such a world it’s not surprising at all. It would surprise me if the whole ‘80’s-‘90’s McMartin case kind of scene turned out to be a fact after all. I did some research into occult crime a few years back and found that there have been a few documented cases of people making it look as if they were part of something ancient and vast, doing occultlike things while hurting children and adults. But they seemed to be isolated, drug-related or some individuals’ attempts to intimidate victims by appearing to be connected to a conspiracy. The victims’ experience was real and scary and they may remember it all their lives as proof of giant conspiracies.

There are many cases you will never hear of. Officials do not want to incite public panic and because of stereotypes, details are kept out of the public eye. Sometimes I do research on the side, even for police detectives. I like helping with cold cases myself, I never became a lawyer as I planned but I am a paralegal and my specialty is research. I just see things that others overlook. One retired sheriff wanted to hire me for his agency, I prefer doing it my way!

I have been told by law enforcement, detectives, and by attorneys that it is harder to get a jury to convict if one brings up any satanic elements to a crime. They do not like those odds,

I was a victim myself, not part of Jehovah Witness but you will find these people in all segments of society, No religion is immune. I know quite a few. I am looking for evidence from my past and have turned over a few things that I can’t talk about right now. If they do not pay for their crimes during their lifetime, they will after death.

I will say though, they all wear a mask. What better place to hide than in plain site, They are one thing to society in the open, and Luciferian to the core. Probably will insult a few Luciferians and Satanist here, but I am not talking about the majority of these people. So many who practice do not even believe in a real Satan. I am referring to the real Luciferians who hold to elitists beliefs and will do anything for power. They go back for centuries.

They believe Lucifer was cheated. Sometimes I call them under grounders. The ones in my family came from Europe. Not all were aware though, the term they use for those blissfully ignorant is “unwittings”.

When you stated that

I have childhood-connected mental imagery I have no idea what to make of; it was decades ago, in a world of secrets and lies, and experiments, and doubletalk,

I understand what you were trying to put into words.

The sad thing about the McMartin case is that when the parents finally had a chance to do their own investigations and search for underground tunnels, no one seemed to care. Wanted to add, there was a CIA connection in that case,

The first time the DA only ran equipment to pick up underground images, they never actually looked under the slab or dug. The tech told them it was pointless because there were too many pipes and other obstruction to pick anything up. The tech was ignored, and they officially went with “no tunnels” found. He was not even going to look to begin with but was put under pressure to do so,

They needed a professional who was not involved in the case. Gloria Steinem helped to fund the excavation. In 1990 UCLA archaeologist Dr. E. Gary Stickel, was commissioned, he wrote a 185 page report, and stated that in fact, there were TWO tunnels found. PEOPLE magazine had an investigative report, and stated that there were no tunnels. Stickel contacted them, the error was found, the story bumped. And by then no one cared.

Here is a PEOPLE archive from 1985, kind of gives you a feel for what was going on. people.com/people/archive/article/0,20091231,00.html

False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMSF) loves to bring that case up, stating “there are no tunnels.” It is a bold faced lie. Of course the original members on their scientific advisory board have CIA connections. Due to the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) this is a documented fact.

Here is a copy of the archaeologist summary report. whale.to/b/stickel.html#BACKGROUND_

And Snow? Me thinks you protest to much. I will not waste my time, I will not play your game.

 

[Snow]

There are many cases you will never hear of. Officials do not want to incite public panic and because of stereotypes, details are kept out of the public eye.

Oh - a conspiracy and coverup eh?

Specifically - which officials (names please) covered up which satanic crimes - exactly?

I will say though, they all wear a mask. What better place to hide than in plain site, They are one thing to society in the open, and Luciferian to the core. Probably will insult a few Luciferians and Satanist here, but I am not talking about the majority of these people. So many who practice do not even believe in a real Satan. I am referring to the real Luciferians who hold to elitists beliefs and will do anything for power. They go back for centuries.

What are the names of these dreaded Luciferians? Where do they live?

The sad thing about the McMartin case is that when the parents finally had a chance to do their own investigations and search for underground tunnels, no one seemed to care. Wanted to add, there was a CIA connection in that case,

The first time the DA only ran equipment to pick up underground images, they never actually looked under the slab or dug. The tech told them it was pointless because there were too many pipes and other obstruction to pick anything up. The tech was ignored, and they officially went with “no tunnels” found. He was not even going to look to begin with but was put under pressure to do so,

They needed a professional who was not involved in the case. Gloria Steinem helped to fund the excavation. In 1990 UCLA archaeologist Dr. E. Gary Stickel, was commissioned, he wrote a 185 page report, and stated that in fact, there were TWO tunnels found. PEOPLE magazine had an investigative report, and stated that there were no tunnels. Stickel contacted them, the error was found, the story bumped. And by then no one cared.

Here is a PEOPLE archive from 1985, kind of gives you a feel for what was going on. people.com/people/archive/article/0,20091231,00.html

False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMSF) loves to bring that case up, stating “there are no tunnels.” It is a bold faced lie. Of course the original members on their scientific advisory board have CIA connections. Due to the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) this is a documented fact.

Here is a copy of the archaeologist summary report. whale.to/b/stickel.html#BACKGROUND_

And Snow? Me thinks you protest to much. I will not waste my time, I will not play your game.

The McMartian case???

Give us a break. They were ACQUITTED. It was the longest and most expensive case in US history and those nuts ruined the lives of those innocent teachers. They should all go to prison themselves for what they did.

 

[Snow]

Sometimes I do research on the side, even for police detectives. I like helping with cold cases myself, I never became a lawyer as I planned but I am a paralegal and my specialty is research. I just see things that others overlook. One retired sheriff wanted to hire me for his agency, I prefer doing it my way!

I have been told by law enforcement, detectives, and by attorneys that it is harder to get a jury to convict if one brings up any satanic elements to a crime. They do not like those odds,

Could you please tell us which law enforcement agencies you worked for, when, on what cases?

 

[Ruthie]

Could you please tell us which law enforcement agencies you worked for, when, on what cases?

This is info that could reveal Auriel’s identity, and thus is none of your (or my) business. It is also way off topic.

You seem to have a deep investment in the idea that there is no such thing as SRA, and that nothing like it has ever happened, not even one case.

Why?

I can understand healthy skepticism. I think that many (but not all) of “recovered memories” are false, because bad techniques were used. But there are good techniques for bringing back repressed memories, and there are people who can remember things from when they were in diapers, without outside help.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

I never said my memories were suppressed. And I never went to any kind of therapist about them. I have always remembered and been aware of what happened to me. The type of SRA that Snow is talkingabout has absolutely nothing to do with me or the subject of this thread.

 

[Ruthie]

Ravyn, I hope I didn’t give you a false impression! I know your memories are not “recovered,” and I have no doubt that you are telling the truth.

God bless you,

Ruthie

 

[Zooey]

I never said my memories were suppressed. And I never went to any kind of therapist about them. I have always remembered and been aware of what happened to me. The type of SRA that Snow is talkingabout has absolutely nothing to do with me or the subject of this thread.

:console:
Ravyn, those of us who have been here long enough to get to know you, know that you are telling the truth.
I am proud of you for being brave enough to talk about what happened to you. So many victims of abuse of all kinds, are never able to bring themselves to speak about it publicly, what you are doing will help others , who have been hurt but who have been too afraid to come forward.
God bless you, Ravyn.

 

[DJgang]

Ravyn:

I listened to the conference call. All of it. I believe you. And it makes perfect sense as to why JWs are anti-Catholic.

I pray for your protection.

I am curious … did you ever read any of the writing that the watchtower published on the book of Daniel?

 

[Snow]

This is info that could reveal Auriel’s identity, and thus is none of your (or my) business. It is also way off topic.

Yep convenient eh - make lots of claims and provide zero evidence.

You seem to have a deep investment in the idea that there is no such thing as SRA, and that nothing like it has ever happened, not even one case.

Why?

I guess a better question is why are you making things up?

I never said that there was not even one case. In fact I specifically said that I cannot comment on what actually happened to a poster or to any one person who claims such abuse. I am in no position to know. What I DID SAY is that there is no such thing as organized widespread SRA as all the crackpots and vested interest therapists claim.

And what I also asked is how many convictions there have been involving SRA.

Do you know how many?

I can understand healthy skepticism. I think that many (but not all) of “recovered memories” are false, because bad techniques were used. But there are good techniques for bringing back repressed memories, and there are people who can remember things from when they were in diapers, without outside help.

How many convictions involving there “good techniques” and SRA have there been in the US?

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Ravyn:

I listened to the conference call. All of it. I believe you. And it makes perfect sense as to why JWs are anti-Catholic.

I pray for your protection.

I am curious … did you ever read any of the writing that the watchtower published on the book of Daniel?

thank you for the prayers. no I left JWs before the Daniel book was published, I have never seen it.

 

[Ruthie]

Sigh. I really don’t want to get into a ding-dong with you, Snow. But…

What I DID SAY is that there is no such thing as organized widespread SRA as all the crackpots and vested interest therapists claim.

And you’ve said it over and over and over and over in this thread, which is not about “organized widespread SRA,” but about one trustworthy person’s story, which does not even contain the elements common to the crackpot stories.

I don’t see why you bring this up so often. It must be very important to you, but it’s not really relevant to Ravyn’s experiences.

You remind me of a therapist I had just one appointment with. When I brought up something that *may *have happened to me in my infancy, she went into the same sort of rant you did. “Most of that stuff is made up! etc etc etc!” She obviously had too much invested in her idea to be interested in helping me discover the truth.

Now, don’t forget that I agree with you about most reports of “organized widespread SRA.”

God bless,

Ruthie

 

[iwantobelieve]

I have an adorable elderly JW woman come to my door every month or two. She carries a real bible and reads me a line or two and asks my opinion then leaves.

I find it hard to believe she participates in devil worship!

i agree, i have first hand encounters w/ jw’s in the past, even attended their kingdom hall meetings because i have a good friend
who was one… for me most of them are sincere in their beliefs.
at first glance you would think they are really astute when it comes to the bible…but guess what, most of them have a hard time
explaining bible verses when you point out the mistakes in their
doctrines and a lot of the watchtowers failed ‘bible’ prediction…
yes most jw’s are sincere in their beliefs but 100% misguided, they have no idea what true chatolicism is all about…

 

[BDawg]

I really have a hard time believing this. Think about it–a pit of dead snakes? Please. It reminds me of the many Evangelical anti-Catholic tracts that accuse priests and nuns of Satanic rituals, nunneries full of the bones of dead babies, and so on. Guess what? They have “testimonies” of former nuns, and so on, as well.

Here’s a point to consider. I believe it was Excalibur who said that the story was doubtful, because people like Ray Franz had left the witnesses and given detailed accounts of their experiences at the WBTS, but gave no hint of the pits of dead snakes. Ravyn replied that only people who had been involved in the highest levels of the organization would know anything about it. Well, guess what? Ray Franz was a member of the JW Governing Body from 1971 to 1980. Maybe they quit with the dead snakes after Ravyn in 1965?

What you have to realize is that the Evangelical “anti-cult” movement is chock-full of…(how can I say this politely? I can’t)…nuts, liars, and rather uneducated, redneck types. They “know” that various groups teach falsehoods, and so they will swallow any idiotic lie that seems to support their belief.

I am not a Catholic, and I don’t believe in Catholicism. Yet, I refuse to believe the kind of undocumented, hysterical accusations that some anti-Catholics lob at the RCC.

I am not a JW, and I don’t believe in their religion. I even think that they can be rather oppressive, insular, and anti-intellectual. Yet, I refuse to believe the kind of undocumented, hysterical accusations that Ravyn is lobbing at them.

I am not accusing Ravyn of lying. Rather, I am saying I believe she probably had some kind of psychological trauma that fed into creating the snake pit memories.

So let’s have some answers, Ravyn. If your hysterical snake-pit memories are true, why haven’t any ex-members of the JW Governing Body, like Ray Franz, come forward with similar accusations? Or maybe they have–please enlighten me.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

first of all BDawg, there was no part of my interview that was hysterical. I do not believe I got upset in the least, I was however a little tired after 3 or 4 hours- however long it was.

and secondly why would you assume Ray Franz had anything to do with it? He was a NEPHEW of Fred Franz that does not mean he had the bloodlines needed to be involved. Obviously more people were not involved than were. My sister was not involved. My mother was not involved. I can’t speak for Ray Franz, so I do not know if he knew anything or not. All I know is that I did not know him. I am not even sure he was in the US at the time. I have never claimed that every one of the Governing Body was involved. I named names of those who were that I am sure I remember.

I don’t need for you to believe me. I just needed to finally say it out loud in case someone else might be helped. I fail to see the reason why people who do not belive me should feel so threatened.

I doubt I will be here much because of the holidays–so Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone and I will see you all more often after the New Year!

added: and incidentally, I never said anything about pits of dead snakes in connecton with Brooklyn–that was in my own backyard and with my father and the ‘local’ groups of men. And my sister and the other children I played with knew about them because in the daytime we used to scare the younger kids by pretending to push them in them! I would guess and say that perhaps some of those people might remember that too. I don’t know, I am not in touch with any of the kids I grew up with–but my sister remembers.

 

[Ruthie]

I fail to see the reason why people who do not belive me should feel so threatened.

Ditto. Big time.

God bless,

Ruthie

 

[Zooey]

"Ravyn_Giuliani:

I fail to see the reason why people who do not belive me should feel so threatened.

Ditto. Big time.

God bless,

Ruthie

Just what I was thinking…
I can understand someone being skeptical; that is one thing. (And I don’t think Ravyn expects everyone to believe everything they read or hear, either).
But I am hearing straight-out anger, from some people, which is very strange. I mean, if someone really doesn’t believe, why be threatened by it? Why not just:shrug: shrug it off, and post on a different thread?