Satan's Fall?

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AnakinSky

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I was wondering what the view is on Satan’s origins. The tradition I was taught painted Satan as a perfect angel called Lucifer. Lucifer was very beautiful until he rebelled against God. Lucifer was cast out of heaven and was now Satan. That’s pretty much what the tradition is. The more i read the passages in Isaiah it clearly meant The King of Bablyon. As well as Ezekiel and the King of tyre. Jesus said that Satan was a murderer from the beginning and John wrote he sinned from the beginning.
 
Lucifer was the most beautiflul of all the angels God had created.He wanted to equal to God.So he rebelled against God and got one third of the angels to follow him.God set the other angels against them and they were defeated.God cast them into Hell.When he created man God set him free for a little while.
 
There is much support for the tradition found in scripture, here are a few examples.

Luke 10:18 He (Jesus) said to them, ‘I watched Satan fall from heaven like a flash of lightning.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Revelation 12.4-14

4His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule* all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne; 6and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, so that there she can be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
7 And war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought back, 8but they were defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9The great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
 
I knew you were going to use those. The thing about Isaiah is how do you know that refers to Satan. It seems that Satan was a prosecuting angel in the old testament. Here are a few verses.

Job 1:6 And a day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah. And Satan also came among them.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

1Jn 3:8 The one practicing sin is of the devil, because the devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the devil.

Rev 12:7 And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war,
Rev 12:8 but they did not have strength, nor yet was place found for them in Heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent being called devil, and, Satan; he deceiving the whole habitable world was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
 
I’m not quite sure what you are getting at. The notion of Satan as “prosecutor” is found both in the Old and New Testaments. This idea in no way contradicts the traditional story of the fall, as related in scripture. If however you found some discrepincy, books such as Job would be held more doubtful then the Gospels and the books of the New Testament.

Are you prehaps taking a too literal view of some of these passages?
 
Not at all. The verses seem quite simple and clear. The point i’m making is that Satan seems to have always been satan. You should pay attention to the order of events in Revelation.

Rev 12:4 and his tail drew the third part of the stars of the heaven, and he throws them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child. Rev 12:5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to shepherd all the nations with an iron staff. And her child was caught away to God, and to His throne. Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place, it having been prepared from God, that there they might nourish her a thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Rev 12:7 And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war,

These events took place before Christ’s birth and they continued after his ascension. If he fell then it was between testaments.
 
Again, you seem to be taking these passages too literally. The war described in heaven, is the war of salvation if you like. It occurs outside of time. It is the great cosmic drama which unfolds as a result of the incarnation, a plan known by God and the angels before earth was created.

Are you a Jehovah’s Witness? :confused:

According to some, although this is speculation not church teaching, it was this plan which inspired the fallen angels to rebel against God. Do not forget that God exists outside of time.
 
How is it too literal?The tradition is that a literal battle took place in heaven. Now you’re getting spiritual about it. Either you believe it or not. That seems like a mystical interpetation. If you want to get mystical some believe satan doesn’t exist. I’m crystal clear (Edited).
 
Fr_Michael_Grac said:
I’m not quite sure what you are getting at. The notion of Satan as “prosecutor” is found both in the Old and New Testaments.
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At one time they didn’t have a problem assigning the blame for problematic actions to Yahweh. So we read in 2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Later in cool afterthought they inserted Satan as a “buffer” between Yahweh and David when recounting the same incident in 1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel..

You can trace a process in the Sacred Scriptures where God moves from a very hands-on deity who walked in the garden with Adam and Eve, or visited Abraham personally in his tent, to one who is very remote, and sent only messengers, or visions. Jesus turned this whole process on its head when he revealed that God wanted to be loved as our “Pop”.
 
The whole book of revelation is not literal. There’s locust with iron breastplates, there’s horses who breath fire and have snakes for tails, and the way John describes it, is as though it was all happening at the time he was speaking. Why would you take one passage out of context with the whole of the book, and seek to prove something one way or the other.

Some people claim Satan does not exist, they are wrong. The whole of scripture testifies to his objective existence, as does the tradition and the teaching of the church. It was doubted neither by the Jewish people nor the early church.

The visions of Revelation, do not occur in time (per se), that does not mean they are not true. As the passage in question echoes the Jewish / Christian legend of the fall of Satan, as this is backed up by Jesus’ statement “I saw Satan fall like lightening”, why should we doubt the truth of the legend?

This reverts to neither a literalistic reading of some passages, out of context, nor to a purely mystical/ mythical understanding of these passages.
 
Yes, there is a development of thought and understanding as the bible progresses. The scriptures are not written independent of human understanding and knowledge. If God is revealing himself to the people of Israel, then surely we should expect to see that they get to know Him better over time.

However, as the figure of Satan is found in the earliest of Jewish stories / scripture, he is not a later, ‘literary’ creation.
 
AnakinSky said:
Not at all. The verses seem quite simple and clear. The point i’m making is that Satan seems to have always been satan. You should pay attention to the order of events in Revelation.

Rev 12:4 and his tail drew the third part of the stars of the heaven, and he throws them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child. Rev 12:5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to shepherd all the nations with an iron staff. And her child was caught away to God, and to His throne. Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place, it having been prepared from God, that there they might nourish her a thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Rev 12:7 And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war,

These events took place before Christ’s birth and they continued after his ascension. If he fell then it was between testaments.
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You need to also take in consideration, when the bible speaks of when and relation to who, consider whether the beings are on earth or in heaven/hell. That is, time has a different meaning or none at all in some respects to angels/demons. We can never understand a place without time until we have died, therefore the Bible needs to speak in a way that we all understand.
 
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