Saturday evening Mass: Advice and help required, please

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TomH1

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I’m in a disagreement with someone. I’m 99.9% certain that I’m correct but this person is so adamant I’m wrong he’s managed so sow a tiny seed of niggling doubt in my mind.

The thing I would most like is to be simply told I’m correct. Obviously, I don’t want this if I’m wrong. If I’m wrong please tell me and explain why I am.

If I’m right I’d be happy enough to be told I am it would be even better to be quoted book, chapter and verse that backs me up.

The person I’m arguing with is basically saying two things about Mass. The first is that to have Mass on Saturday evening there has to be a real pastoral need and permission from the bishop. I say no. Mass can be celebrated on any evening and it doesn’t need permission from any quarter.

The second thing this this person is saying is that if you go to Mass on Saturday evening the Sunday obligation is only satisfied if it was the Sunday Mass that was celebrated. I counter that saying it’s nonsense. A Catholic can fulfil his/her Sunday obligation at a Eucharistic celebration (Divine Liturgy, Holy Mass, Holy Qurbono) celebrated in any rite (Byzantine, East Syriac, Roman) in any Catholic church sui iuris (Eastern and Latin Catholic churches). That being true if you went to an Eastern Catholic church on a particular Saturday you would fulfil your obligation and it is highly probable that Eastern Catholic church was not celebrating what is on the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite’s calendar for that Sunday.
 
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Best of my knowledge, you are right. I can’t look up the proof now as I’m getting ready for work.
Dominus vobiscum
 
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You are correct. Can the other person support his claims from Canon Law where these items would be specified (were they true)? (No, he can’t.)

It’s been established on these forums repeatedly that the Mass celebrated is entirely independent of fulfilling the obligation (though the “spirit” of the obligation might be an arguable factor, the law states any Mass or equivalent liturgy of any Catholic rite meets the obligation).

With respect to timing for a Sunday Mass on Saturday evening, there’s simply nothing specifying a reason or rationale needed. In general, all parish Mass schedules are subject to the bishop’s approval, but there’s nothing special about Saturday. (I’d be happy to be proven wrong if someone can find an authoritative document.)
 
You might find this thread helpful (Especially the post by Fr David, a priest) on the point of whether the Mass on Saturday evening would require permission from the Bishop. In the (now getting somewhat distant) past, this does indeed appear to have been the case.
I’m also guessing that prior to the Church relaxing the fasting requirements, a late afternoon or evening Mass was usually not going to happen anyway because people would not want to be fasting from all food from midnight the night before until 4 in the afternoon.
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When did Saturday Mass begin? Liturgy and Sacraments
When did the Catholic Church start having Mass on Saturdays? Did it begin in large churches before smaller churches? I think it was in the 1970s. I tried googling it but I did not have luck. I came upon this site through google!
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Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
 
ajfrab said:
Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
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@ TomH1
And there you have it. “A Mass” not “Sunday Mass”, “Catholic rite” not “Latin rite”, and no requirement that there be an inability to attend on Sunday.
 
TomH1 said:
The first is that to have Mass on Saturday evening there has to be a real pastoral need and permission from the bishop. I say no.
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You are correct
TomH1 said:
The second thing this this person is saying is that if you go to Mass on Saturday evening the Sunday obligation is only satisfied if it was the Sunday Mass that was celebrated. I counter that saying it’s nonsense.
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You are correct.
 
Thanks to @TisBearself for giving a link to an old thread on the same subject. This is what Pope St. John Paul II wrote in his apostolic letter, Dies Domini, in 1988.
  1. Because the faithful are obliged to attend Mass unless there is a grave impediment, Pastors have the corresponding duty to offer to everyone the real possibility of fulfilling the precept. The provisions of Church law move in this direction, as for example in the faculty granted to priests, with the prior authorization of the diocesan Bishop, to celebrate more than one Mass on Sundays and holy days,(85) the institution of evening Masses(86) and the provision which allows the obligation to be fulfilled from Saturday evening onwards, starting at the time of First Vespers of Sunday.(87) From a liturgical point of view, in fact, holy days begin with First Vespers.(88) Consequently, the liturgy of what is sometimes called the “Vigil Mass” is in effect the “festive” Mass of Sunday, at which the celebrant is required to preach the homily and recite the Prayer of the Faithful.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...uments/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini.html
 
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TomH1 said:
it would be even better to be quoted book, chapter and verse that backs me up.
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Actually since he’s asserting that permission is required to celebrate the Sunday mass on Saturdays, he needs to supply the document that shows this.

Same for his assertion of the latter.

When someone asserts something IS a requirement, the burden of proof is on them. It is not incumbent on you to prove a negative.
 
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Thank you 1ke. I know this. I make my living as a scientist so am very much aware of this rule of logic. However, it’s always nice to have something you can cite to throw back at them. 😀
 
Thank you to everyone for these answers. I am much cheered by them. Being under house arrest because of this pandemic is not having a positive effect on my mood or cognition. Normally, I’d have not had that little doubt. So I am very happy to receive all these positive replies. Everyone have a 🍷 on me.
 
TomH1 said:
Thank you to everyone for these answers. I am much cheered by them. Being under house arrest because of this pandemic is not having a positive effect on my mood or cognition. Normally, I’d have not had that little doubt. So I am very happy to receive all these positive replies. Everyone have a 🍷 on me.
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Bit early, but, why not? 🤣
 
I do know that at one time in Poland, Saturday evening Mass was available, but the expectation was that you would only attend it, if you had a bona fide reason for being able to attend Mass then, and not on Sunday (necessary employment, travel, etc.). I don’t know if this was enshrined in any kind of Church law, recommendation (or even mandate) of the Polish bishops’ conference, or if it was just a popular sentiment based upon a keen sensus catholicus. The one time I went to Saturday evening Mass there (out of necessity), it was very sparsely attended.

That was over 25 years ago, and things may have changed since then.
 
I just want to reiterate this, and so would concede half of your interlocutor’s first point. (The rest of his assertion is baloney, however)
Cor_ad_Cor said:
In general, all parish Mass schedules are subject to the bishop’s approval, but there’s nothing special about Saturday.
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Public Mass schedules are technically done with the bishop’s permission and approval. (My understanding is to facilitate that Masses are offered at a reasonable variety of times – In the sense that it would not be helpful nor pastoral if every parish in the diocese offered Masses only at 5pm Saturday and 9am Sunday, for instance)
 
I do agree with you but he cannot so will not. For the avoidance of doubt I called him ‘someone’. I can assure you he is not my friend.
 
I do believe there was some general rule like this and I suppose I could find the details if I had to do so. What I believe happened was that the Church first said that those who could not genuinely satisfy the obligation on Sunday, e.g. doctors, nurses, firemen, police offices, etc., could go to Mass on the previous evening. Then I believe the rule was changed so that everyone no matter what their circumstances could fulfil the Sunday or holy day obligation on the previous evening. I am almost certain, without checking, that the latter came in during the pontificate of St John Paul II. Nowadays, I don’t think I could name a parish that doesn’t have Mass on Saturday evening.
 
TomH1 said:
I do believe there was some general rule like this and I suppose I could find the details if I had to do so. What I believe happened was that the Church first said that those who could not genuinely satisfy the obligation on Sunday, e.g. doctors, nurses, firemen, police offices, etc., could go to Mass on the previous evening. Then I believe the rule was changed so that everyone no matter what their circumstances could fulfil the Sunday or holy day obligation on the previous evening. I am almost certain, without checking, that the latter came in during the pontificate of St John Paul II. Nowadays, I don’t think I could name a parish that doesn’t have Mass on Saturday evening.
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I seem to recall vaguely something like that — the Church loosened the restriction so that it was licit for anyone to go to Saturday evening Mass in lieu of Sunday, for any reason or no reason at all. I can imagine that some rural mission areas, with a priest who travels between parishes, would only be able to have Mass on Saturday evening, because the priest is needed elsewhere on Sunday.

When I first became exposed to the Catholic world, I found it very bizarre that Catholics would “go to Sunday Mass” on Saturday evening instead of Sunday. Evangelicals never heard of such a thing.
 
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