Saturday evening mass time

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The Saturday evening mass fullfils the Sunday obligation. What time would count as “evening”? If the Saturday mass started at 2:00pm or 3:00pm, does it fullfil the Sunday obligation?
 
The Church says that it must be an evening Mass. Since approximately World War II, the Church’s working definition of evening has been 4:00 PM at the earliest. This has been expressed many times over the decades in Church laws. If it starts before 4 PM then it’s not an evening Mass.
 
FrDavid96 said:
The Church says that it must be an evening Mass. Since approximately World War II, the Church’s working definition of evening has been 4:00 PM at the earliest. This has been expressed many times over the decades in Church laws. If it starts before 4 PM then it’s not an evening Mass.
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My school’s Baccalaruete mass starts at 3pm. Tomorrow is the graduation ceremony in which students have to be at the place by noon.
 
Then it sounds like you’ll be getting up for a Mass early enough to allow you to get to the graduation ceremony by noon. Assuming the ceremony isn’t far away, a Mass by 10am should give you enough time. See masstimes.org/ for Mass times in your area.
 
Fr. Vincent Serpa informed me that if was a Vigil Mass (it was, we celebrated the feast of the Ascension) then it fullfiled my obligation. No need to get up early tomorrow.
 
Vico said:
It varies more since the 1983 canon law.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=400900
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And yet, that doesn’t change what the 1983 code actually says. It does not say that a Mass anytime on Saturday (whatever the local bishop chooses) fulfills the obligation—which is what the author is saying. The canon specifies that it must be a Mass in the evening.

If it’s not an evening Mass, then it doesn’t meet the obligation as it is defined in canon law.
 
FrDavid96 said:
And yet, that doesn’t change what the 1983 code actually says. It does not say that a Mass anytime on Saturday (whatever the local bishop chooses) fulfills the obligation—which is what the author is saying. The canon specifies that it must be a Mass in the evening.

If it’s not an evening Mass, then it doesn’t meet the obligation as it is defined in canon law.
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4 p.m. as the time at which a Mass qualifies as an “evening Mass” is based on the document that originally allowed the celebration of “evening Mass”.

From Pope Pius XII’s 1953 Apostolic Constitution “Christus Dominus”
With Reference to Evening Masses
(Constitution, Rule VI)

By the force of the Constitution the Ordinaries of places[27] have the faculty of permitting the saying of evening Masses in their own territory, should circumstances render this necessary. This holds true despite the command of canon 821, # 1. The common good sometimes demands the saying of Mass after midday: For example, for the workers in some industries who work their shifts even on feast days, for those categories of workers who must be on the job during the morning hours of feast days, like dock workers, and likewise for those who have come in great numbers and from considerable distances for some religious or social celebration, etc.
  1. Such Masses, however, may not be said before four o’clock in the afternoon(…)
 
FrDavid96 said:
And yet, that doesn’t change what the 1983 code actually says. It does not say that a Mass anytime on Saturday (whatever the local bishop chooses) fulfills the obligation—which is what the author is saying. The canon specifies that it must be a Mass in the evening.

If it’s not an evening Mass, then it doesn’t meet the obligation as it is defined in canon law.
Click to expand...
The time of 4pm is what one normally encounters in the US. The bishop may have made a declaration for the diocese. There are different canon law opinions on it, 12 noon, 2pm, 4pm: What is ‘the evening of the previous day’? Despite the view of some commentators that this should be interpreted as beginning only at 1400 hours (2 pm) on that day, it is the firm view of this commentary that the evening of the previous day begins at midday (12 noon) on that day itself. In some dioceses there is a local regulation to the effect that the so-called vigil or anticipated Mass may not be celebrated before, say, 5 pm or 6 pm: this is normally for pastoral reasons, e.g. to facilitate weddings or funerals in the parish and other churches. Those regulations do not in any way concern the time prescribed for fulfilling the obligation to assist at Mass: thus, e.g., if . . . a person were to attend a nuptial Mass in the early afternoon on a Saturday, that person would thereby have fulfilled the obligation.
The Canon Law: Letter & Spirit : A Practical Guide to the Code of Canon Law, Edited by Gerard Sheehy et al., 1995, p. 702. (Opinion of Fr. Raymond Browne)

The New commentary on the Code of Canon Law by John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, and Thomas J. Green

and
Code: 
The Canon Law: Letter & Spirit (1995, Sheehy, Morrisey, Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Canadian Canon Law Society)
are both respected commentaries on Canon Law, and they do not agree!

Following are translations on the Vatican website. Notice that the German translation uses “Vorabend” (Eve), rather than “der Nachmittag” (afternoon) or “der Abend” (evening), which seems to be the figurative use which is broader.
 
Vico said:
The time of 4pm is what one normally encounters in the US. The bishop may have made a declaration for the diocese. There are different canon law opinions on it, 12 noon, 2pm, 4pm: What is ‘the evening of the previous day’? Despite the view of some commentators that this should be interpreted as beginning only at 1400 hours (2 pm) on that day, it is the firm view of this commentary that the evening of the previous day begins at midday (12 noon) on that day itself. In some dioceses there is a local regulation to the effect that the so-called vigil or anticipated Mass may not be celebrated before, say, 5 pm or 6 pm: this is normally for pastoral reasons, e.g. to facilitate weddings or funerals in the parish and other churches. Those regulations do not in any way concern the time prescribed for fulfilling the obligation to assist at Mass: thus, e.g., if . . . a person were to attend a nuptial Mass in the early afternoon on a Saturday, that person would thereby have fulfilled the obligation.
The Canon Law: Letter & Spirit : A Practical Guide to the Code of Canon Law, Edited by Gerard Sheehy et al., 1995, p. 702. (Opinion of Fr. Raymond Browne)

The New commentary on the Code of Canon Law by John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, and Thomas J. Green

and
Code: 
The Canon Law: Letter & Spirit (1995, Sheehy, Morrisey, Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Canadian Canon Law Society)
are both respected commentaries on Canon Law, and they do not agree!

Following are translations on the Vatican website. Notice that the German translation uses “Vorabend” (Eve), rather than “der Nachmittag” (afternoon) or “der Abend” (evening), which seems to be the figurative use which is broader.
Click to expand...
Commentaries are not canon law.

Vernacular translations of the canons are not canon law.

All the commentary in the world doesn’t change the fact that the canon itself says it must be an evening Mass (vespere).

If it’s not an evening Mass, then it doesn’t meet the criteria of what the canon actually says.

Commentaries cannot change what the code says.

Now, if the code actually said “after noon” (in Latin, post meridiem) then I would agree with anyone who said, in the vernacular, “any Mass after noon…”

Until the code changes, and some pope crosses out -]vespere/-] and writes-in post-meridiem, the obligation is only satisfied with an evening Mass.
 
I checked the Vatican website.

Here’s what I did not find:

Can. 1248 — § 1. Praecepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missae assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico vel ipso die festo vel -]vespere/-] post meridiem diei praecedentis.
 
FrDavid96 said:
Commentaries are not canon law.

Vernacular translations of the canons are not canon law.

All the commentary in the world doesn’t change the fact that the canon itself says it must be an evening Mass (vespere).

If it’s not an evening Mass, then it doesn’t meet the criteria of what the canon actually says.

Commentaries cannot change what the code says.

Now, if the code actually said “after noon” (in Latin, post meridiem) then I would agree with anyone who said, in the vernacular, “any Mass after noon…”

Until the code changes, and some pope crosses out -]vespere/-] and writes-in post-meridiem, the obligation is only satisfied with an evening Mass.
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Evening is not a fixed hour, based upon the latitude and season of the year it can be quite early hour wise. In some places like Barrow Alaska, the Sun is down all day.
 
johnnyt3000 said:
Fr. Vincent Serpa informed me that if was a Vigil Mass (it was, we celebrated the feast of the Ascension) then it fullfiled my obligation. No need to get up early tomorrow.
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Fr Serpa told you that a 3pm baccalaureate Mass was an Ascension Vigil Mass? :hmmm:
 
Then there is at least one diocese that breaks that rule at their Cathedral/Bishop’s home parish, because the first Mass for Sunday’s obligation (and it’s even noted in the bulletin that it meets it) is Saturday at 2:30 PM. I find it hard to believe that it isn’t legal, that they would be allowed to do that.
 
Phemie said:
4 p.m. as the time at which a Mass qualifies as an “evening Mass” is based on the document that originally allowed the celebration of “evening Mass”.

From Pope Pius XII’s 1953 Apostolic Constitution "Christus Dominus"With Reference to Evening Masses
(Constitution, Rule VI)

By the force of the Constitution the Ordinaries of places[27] have the faculty of permitting the saying of evening Masses in their own territory, should circumstances render this necessary. This holds true despite the command of canon 821, # 1. The common good sometimes demands the saying of Mass after midday: For example, for the workers in some industries who work their shifts even on feast days, for those categories of workers who must be on the job during the morning hours of feast days, like dock workers, and likewise for those who have come in great numbers and from considerable distances for some religious or social celebration, etc.
  1. Such Masses, however, may not be said before four o’clock in the afternoon(…)
Click to expand...
The norm changed after that. The first reference below, from 1969, gives the general schema, that observance of a Sunday and a solemnity begins on the preceding liturgical day, but the determination of that time is made by the local ordinary, according to Eucharisticum Mysterium (see second reference below, from 1967). The limit of 4 pm established years earlier at which time there was, for those evenings, a three hour fast from food established as a Eucharistic fast rather than a fast from midnight, so 4PM actually served as a safeguard to those finishing lunch by 1 pm.**
I. The Liturgical Day in General**

The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day. III. Solemnities, Feasts, and Memorials11. Solemnities are counted as the principal days in the calendar and their observance begins with evening prayer I of the preceding day. Some also have their own vigil Mass for use when Mass is celebrated in the evening of the preceding day.
  1. Feasts are celebrated within the limits of the natural day and accordingly do not have evening prayer I. Exceptions are feasts of the Lord that fall on a Sunday in Ordinary Time and in the Christmas season and that replace the Sunday office.
  2. Memorials are either obligatory or optional. Their observance is integrated into the celebration of the occurring weekday in accord with the norms set forth in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal and the Liturgy of the Hours.
From Eucharisticum Mysterium (Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery) May 25, 1967:
  1. Anticipating the Sunday and Feast Day Masses on the Previous Evening
Where permission has been granted by the Apostolic See to fulfill the Sunday obligation on the preceding Saturday evening, pastors should explain the meaning of this permission carefully to the faithful and should ensure that the significance of Sunday is not thereby obscured. The purpose of this concession is in fact to enable the Christians of today to celebrate more easily the day of the resurrection of the Lord.

All concessions and contrary customs notwithstanding, when celebrated on Saturday this Mass may be celebrated only in the evening, at times determined by the local Ordinary.

In these cases the Mass celebrated is that assigned in the calendar to Sunday, the homily and the prayer of the faithful are not to be omitted.

What has been said above is equally valid for the Mass on holy days of obligation which for the same reason has been transferred to the preceding evening.

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/Index/2/SubIndex/11/DocumentIndex/338
 
johnnyt3000 said:
Fr. Vincent Serpa informed me that if was a Vigil Mass (it was, we celebrated the feast of the Ascension) then it fullfiled my obligation. No need to get up early tomorrow.
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FWIW, my handmissal shows that the Ascension Vigil Mass has different propers than the Ascension propers, but that shouldn’t effect its being able to fulfill one’s obligation as has been discussed.
 
Vico said:
The norm changed after that. The first reference below, from 1969, gives the general schema, that observance of a Sunday and a solemnity begins on the preceding liturgical day, but the determination of that time is made by the local ordinary, according to Eucharisticum Mysterium (see second reference below, from 1967). The limit of 4 pm established years earlier at which time there was, for those evenings, a three hour fast from food established as a Eucharistic fast rather than a fast from midnight, so 4PM actually served as a safeguard to those finishing lunch by 1 pm.
catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/Index/2/SubIndex/11/DocumentIndex/338
Click to expand...
I don’t see how that changes anything.

Yes, the bishop got to decide at which time the Mass in his diocese started. But since it says “only in the evening” and “in the evening” had already been defined as “not before 4 p.m.” I don’t see how, it could be interpreted to mean a bishop could opt for 2:00 or 3:00 p.m. He could certainly set the time for 5 or 6 or 7 p.m.
 
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