Saturday Mass ok?

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Polska:

Is it ok to go to mass on saturday at night (6:30) instead of going sunday morning only due to convenience ie. I dont feel like waking up in the morning? Does this meet the “keep the sabbath day holy” commandment?

It’s good enough to get by (meet your obligation) if that is all you can muster for God. You know your reasons and you know if they satisfy God.

Which reminds me of the apple story:

Once there was a man who had nothing. God gave him seven apples. Two apples he gave him for food., two to trade for clothing and two to trade for shelter. The man eat the first two and then traded the other two for clothing and the other two for shelter.

God gave him the seventh apple so he would have something to give back to God in gratitude for the other six. But the man held up the seventh apple and admired it. It was larger and juicer than the others. He knew in his heart that was the apple that God expected him to use as a gift of gratitude for the other six. But the man thought God has all the other apples in the world, so he ate the seventh apple, and gave God the core. God gives us seven days. One he expects us to use to thank him. But so often we, give him only the core! (anonymous)

 

[cynic]

Isn’t the sabbath made for us, we’ve give God the 6 others by working hard all week and juggling family duties.

 

[Della]

I haven’t said that people ought not to go to Saturday Vigil Mass if that is the best Mass for them to attend, but only that the attitude the OP had of wanting to just sleep in out of mere laziness is not exactly one to be imitated. Don’t you all agree?

Except for you, cynic, who seem to think God gets rewarded enough because we work hard all week and have to juggle family duties with the hands, the brains, the eyes, the legs and arms, the life he gave us, which ought to be enough to satisfy the miserly old tyrant, so, we should be able to just sleep in. Great attitude that. I sure hope that isn’t what you’re saying.

 

[fix]

Della:

I haven’t said that people ought not to go to Saturday Vigil Mass if that is the best Mass for them to attend, but only that the attitude the OP had of wanting to just sleep in out of mere laziness is not exactly one to be imitated. Don’t you all agree?

I do not think I agree. I am open to someone changing my mind. My understanding is the new 1983 code of canon law specfically changed the idea one needed a *good *reason to attend the vigil mass. Attending the mass is valid as attending the Sunday mass.

The reason one attends any mass may be open to discussion, but the obligation is fulfilled. My question to you is what if we reverse the situation? Would it be improper for one to say they attend the Sunday mass because the Saturday mass does not feel like it fulfills the obligation?

I know folks who claim that.

 

[asquared]

there are two issues being discussed here at the same time, and that is causing confusion.

the first issue is, does attending Mass on Saturday evening fulfill your Sunday obligation? the answer is yes, no matter what your motive, and the relevant citations have been given. this question belongs on the liturgy forum, where there are dozens of threads on the topic.

the second issue is our attitude toward our Mass obligation, and the other duties of spiritual life in general. this could profitably be discussed either on the liturgy forum or in spirituality. the larger question is why do we fulfill our obligations toward God? why are we obedient at all?

erhaps the parable of the two sons is helpful here. The first son said “yes” to his father’s command, but did not carry out his obligation. The second son refused his father’s command, but later carried out the task, but the Gospel is silent about his attitude as he did it. Was he grudginly obedient, willfully obedient, joyfully obedient, contritely obedient? does not seem to matter in the context of the story, the point is he did it.

we can get into a trap if we say, I won’t fulfill this duty unless I am doing it out of the purest possible motives, and that becomes and excuse for not doing it at all. For instance, I am not “getting anything out of Mass” so I won’t go until my attitude improves.

 

[CindyGia]

jpusateri:

It is. Canon law 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

So it’s legal.

However Della makes the point that the attitude is essential.

We are not called to lives of convenience, but need to sanctify ourselves through suffering, beginning with inconvenience.

AHHH - THAN HERES A GREAT QUESTION THAT HAS BEEN ON MY MIND FOR ABOUT A WEEK NOW…

IF A PERSON ATTENDS SATURDAY EVENING MASS AND IT FULFILLS THE SUNDAY OBLIGATION - THEN WHAT ABOUT PARISHIONERS WHO ATTEND A SUNDAY 5:30PM MASS?

THE CHURCH IN MY TOWN OFFERS A 5:30PM MASS AND IT IS ALWAYS FILLED TO CAPACITY. I AM BEGINNING TO WONDER THAT IF A SATURDAY NIGHT MASS FULFILLS THE SUNDAY OBLIGATION, THEN WOULDN’T A SUNDAY 5:30PM MASS TECHNICALLY BE A MONDAY MASS?

IF THIS IS SO, NOW ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THEY ARE FULFILLING THE SUNDAY OBLIGATION, ARE, IN REALITY - IN MORTAL SIN WEEK AFTER WEEK!

BECAUSE OF THIS NEW FEAR I HAVE, IF I HAPPEN TO ATTEND A SATURDAY EVENING MASS, I NOW ALSO ATTEND A SUNDAY MASS AS WELL, JUST IN CASE!

 

[fix]

CindyGia:

A
IF A PERSON ATTENDS SATURDAY EVENING MASS AND IT FULFILLS THE SUNDAY OBLIGATION - THEN WHAT ABOUT PARISHIONERS WHO ATTEND A SUNDAY 5:30PM MASS?

I believe a vigil mass in only for a Sunday or feast day, so the 5:30 mass on Sunday would not be for Monday.

 

[Sherlock]

cynic:

Isn’t the sabbath made for us, we’ve give God the 6 others by working hard all week and juggling family duties.

How is working hard and juggling family duties “giving to God” in a way that fulfills the obligation to make holy the Lord’s Day? Not that those are opposed to Godliness, mind you, but atheists do the same.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

CindyGia:

IF THIS IS SO, NOW ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THEY ARE FULFILLING THE SUNDAY OBLIGATION, ARE, IN REALITY - IN MORTAL SIN WEEK AFTER WEEK!

First, the Church doesn’t measure things in terms of clock time, it’s sundown to sundown (which is problematic, I agree, because the sun sets earlier in the winter, earlier the further north or south you go, etc.). I think it’s whatever the ordinary allows as fufilling the Sunday obligation, within reason.

Second, if they are under the impression that that Mass fufills their obligation, then they aren’t committing mortal sin. You cannot accidentally commit mortal sin, deliberation is part of what makes it mortal.

 

[Sherlock]

Della:

I haven’t said that people ought not to go to Saturday Vigil Mass if that is the best Mass for them to attend, but only that the attitude the OP had of wanting to just sleep in out of mere laziness is not exactly one to be imitated. Don’t you all agree?

Except for you, cynic, who seem to think God gets rewarded enough because we work hard all week and have to juggle family duties with the hands, the brains, the eyes, the legs and arms, the life he gave us, which ought to be enough to satisfy the miserly old tyrant, so, we should be able to just sleep in. Great attitude that. I sure hope that isn’t what you’re saying.

Della, I’m with you on this one. Attitude is important. I can understand preferring a Saturday Mass if it’s more quiet and reverent and conducive to praising God, but the attitude of “I just want to sleep in” is not a healthy sign, indicating a minimalist approach to one’s faith. I don’t see it as a good enough reason, regardless of the legality of it fulfilling the Sunday obligation.

My priest, who is very orthodox, says that Sunday is preferable and more in the spirit of keeping the Lord’s Day holy. He has a bit of a problem with a 5:00 “evening” Saturday Mass that, in summertime, is held hours and hours before nightfall, thus weakening the idea of a vigil Mass. But he acknowledges that it has become accepted in people’s minds (custom has a way of doing that), and, like the recommendation in the rubrics that the prayers of the Mass be in Latin, the Sunday preference has become watered down and ignored.

We often go to Saturday Mass because we drive most of an hour to go to our particular parish and sometimes that works out better with other obligations. However, since he told me about Sunday attendance being more in the spirit of keeping the Lord’s Day holy, I have eliminated convenience as a reason not to go to Sunday Mass. We still go on Saturday from time to time, but for other factors, NOT mere convenience. Della, you are entirely in line with our orthodox priest, and also in line with the idea of faith as more than merely fulfilling the obligations.

 

[fix]

Sherlock:

Della, I’m with you on this one. Attitude is important. I can understand preferring a Saturday Mass if it’s more quiet and reverent and conducive to praising God, but the attitude of “I just want to sleep in” is not a healthy sign, indicating a minimalist approach to one’s faith. I don’t see it as a good enough reason, regardless of the legality of it fulfilling the Sunday obligation.

My priest, who is very orthodox, says that Sunday is preferable and more in the spirit of keeping the Lord’s Day holy. He has a bit of a problem with a 5:00 “evening” Saturday Mass that, in summertime, is held hours and hours before nightfall, thus weakening the idea of a vigil Mass. But he acknowledges that it has become accepted in people’s minds (custom has a way of doing that), and, like the recommendation in the rubrics that the prayers of the Mass be in Latin, the Sunday preference has become watered down and ignored.

We often go to Saturday Mass because we drive most of an hour to go to our particular parish and sometimes that works out better with other obligations. However, since he told me about Sunday attendance being more in the spirit of keeping the Lord’s Day holy, I have eliminated convenience as a reason not to go to Sunday Mass. We still go on Saturday from time to time, but for other factors, NOT mere convenience. Della, you are entirely in line with our orthodox priest, and also in line with the idea of faith as more than merely fulfilling the obligations.

This seems troubling to me. First, the Church does not say it is better to attend the Sunday mass over the Saturday mass? If the Church does say that I would like to read about it so I may accept that conclusion.

Second, what if there are two Sunday Masses, one at 7:00am and one at 12:15 pm? One chooses the 12:15 over the 7:00 is that not as good as choosing the 7:00 , or is the person being less reverent by choosing the later mass?

 

[Sherlock]

fix:

This seems troubling to me. First, the Church does not say it is better to attend the Sunday mass over the Saturday mass? If the Church does say that I would like to read about it so I may accept that conclusion.

Second, what if there are two Sunday Masses, one at 7:00am and one at 12:15 pm? One chooses the 12:15 over the 7:00 is that not as good as choosing the 7:00 , or is the person being less reverent by choosing the later mass?

I don’t understand your question regarding the Sunday Masses—they’re both on Sunday, right? Why would you distinguish between the two?

The Lord’s Day is understood to be Sunday–are you saying that the Church doesn’t teach this??!. Saturday vigil Masses are meant to be that—vigil Masses, meaning connected (in theory, if not in practice) to Sunday in the traditional sense that a “day” was connected to daylight (Such as the Jews of the Old Testament would count a day). Vigil Masses are fine, and they fulfill the obligation, but in practice they are often not connected to daylight, and, yes, attititude is important. They were not instituted so that people could sleep in on Sunday—that is hardly in the spirit of observing the Lord’s Day. I am sorry that such a minimalist view (“I’ll just do whatever the Church requires and no more”) has become so common among Catholics.

 

[fix]

Sherlock:

I don’t understand your question regarding the Sunday Masses—they’re both on Sunday, right? Why would you distinguish between the two?

The Lord’s Day is understood to be Sunday–are you saying that the Church doesn’t teach this??!. Saturday vigil Masses are meant to be that—vigil Masses, meaning connected (in theory, if not in practice) to Sunday in the traditional sense that a “day” was connected to daylight (Such as the Jews of the Old Testament would count a day). Vigil Masses are fine, and they fulfill the obligation, but in practice they are often not connected to daylight, and, yes, attititude is important. They were not instituted so that people could sleep in on Sunday—that is hardly in the spirit of observing the Lord’s Day. I am sorry that such a minimalist view (“I’ll just do whatever the Church requires and no more”) has become so common among Catholics.

I mentioned those two times because the notion in question is about laziness and attending mass. If one wants to sleep in Sunday morning and go to a later mass is that different from sleeping in and going on Saturday?

As to minimalism I agree in part, however, I do have a problem with imposing conditions on folks the Church does not impose. The vigil mass is a valid mass that fulfills the obligation and the Church makes no distinction as to why one attends that mass over the Sunday mass and neither should I.

So, to the topic in question, is it wrong to attend a Saturday mass because one wants to sleep in, or whatever, on Sunday?

I would think that is no more wrong then sleeping in and going to a later Sunday mass.

 

[Della]

fix:

I mentioned those two times because the notion in question is about laziness and attending mass. If one wants to sleep in Sunday morning and go to a later mass is that different from sleeping in and going on Saturday?

As to minimalism I agree in part, however, I do have a problem with imposing conditions on folks the Church does not impose. The vigil mass is a valid mass that fulfills the obligation and the Church makes no distinction as to why one attends that mass over the Sunday mass and neither should I.

So, to the topic in question, is it wrong to attend a Saturday mass because one wants to sleep in, or whatever, on Sunday?

I would think that is no more wrong then sleeping in and going to a later Sunday mass.

Since my dh and I usually attend the 12:15 Sunday Mass, and I am the one that brought up the laziness factor, I’ll answer from our own experience. For us, it’s not laziness that prompts our attendance at this later Mass but health issues. I have FMS and IC (a bladder condition) and so don’t sleep very well. At 7 AM I am barely alive let alone disposed to attend and fully assist at Mass.

As to imposing conditions, it’s no imposition to those who want to have a more Catholic rather than a modernist, get-away-with-whatever-I-can attitude that many have no matter what Mass they attend. Not everyone who attends the Vigil Mass wants to sleep in on a Sunday morning, but those who have that attitude would be well advised to think about what that means with regard to their love of God.

 

[fix]

Della:

Since my dh and I usually attend the 12:15 Sunday Mass, and I am the one that brought up the laziness factor, I’ll answer from our own experience. For us, it’s not laziness that prompts our attendance at this later Mass but health issues. I have FMS and IC (a bladder condition) and so don’t sleep very well. At 7 AM I am barely alive let alone disposed to attend and fully assist at Mass.

As to imposing conditions, it’s no imposition to those who want to have a more Catholic rather than a modernist, get-away-with-whatever-I-can attitude that many have no matter what Mass they attend. Not everyone who attends the Vigil Mass wants to sleep in on a Sunday morning, but those who have that attitude would be well advised to think about what that means with regard to their love of God.

Keeping Sunday holy is a good thing. Claiming the anticipatory mass should only be attended for specific reasons is not in keeping with the mind of the Church. That is my sole point. We ought not claim to be more Catholic than Her.

 

[Sherlock]

fix:

I mentioned those two times because the notion in question is about laziness and attending mass. If one wants to sleep in Sunday morning and go to a later mass is that different from sleeping in and going on Saturday? .

The preference is for Sunday, the Lord’s Day. Read this, from John Paul II: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html
Hopefully this will increase your appreciation for the importance of Sunday.

As for your question: both of your hypothetical Masses are on Sunday, no? So I don’t see your point. They are both on Sunday, so the importance of Sunday is not being compromised. Saturday vigil Masses are to be held in the evening, in keeping with the understanding of the vigil Mass (after sunset). It is hard to see how early (4:30, 5:00 is common) Saturday Masses in the summertime are conducive to maintaining the significance of Sunday. And so, except for good reasons (the Saturday Mass is more revererent; other legitimate obligations; etc), Sunday observance is preferable to some daytime Saturday Mass. Wanting to sleep in on Sunday does not strike me as a good reason.

fix:

As to minimalism I agree in part, however, I do have a problem with imposing conditions on folks the Church does not impose. The vigil mass is a valid mass that fulfills the obligation and the Church makes no distinction as to why one attends that mass over the Sunday mass and neither should I…

How am I, or the Church, “imposing conditions”? The Church suggests; she cannot enforce. If you want to take a strictly legalistic view (the bare minimum and no more), that’s fine though poverty-stricken. The Church does prefer keeping Sunday holy—just read the Apostolic letter I linked to. And, frankly, I’ll accept my priest’s opinion that going to Saturday Mass solely so that one can sleep in on Sunday is not in keeping with the spirit of keeping the Lord’s Day holy and devoted to God.

fix:

So, to the topic in question, is it wrong to attend a Saturday mass because one wants to sleep in, or whatever, on Sunday?.

Not legally wrong, at least for now (it is questionable that a daytime Mass really fulfills the concept of a “vigil”). I think it is a spiritual problem, not a legal problem.

fix:

I would think that is no more wrong then sleeping in and going to a later Sunday mass.

That’s your opinion. However, after reading the letter regarding the importance of Sunday, I’ll go beyond mere convenience, thank you.

 

[fix]

Sherlock:

The preference is for Sunday, the Lord’s Day. Read this, from John Paul II: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html
Hopefully this will increase your appreciation for the importance of Sunday.

Can you point out where he says that one should attend mass specfically on Sunday unless one has a good reason to go on Saturday? I ask because I do not have time to read it all right now. Keeping in mind the anticipatory mass is the exact same as the Sunday mass and fulfills the obligation.

As for your question: both of your hypothetical Masses are on Sunday, no? So I don’t see your point. They are both on Sunday, so the importance of Sunday is not being compromised.

My point is the reason one uses to go to a later Sunday mass is no better than the reason used to go to the Saturday anticipatory mass. I am not endorsing laziness, only making the point it may apply to a Sunday mass as well.

Saturday vigil Masses are to be held in the evening, in keeping with the understanding of the vigil Mass (after sunset). It is hard to see how early (4:30, 5:00 is common) Saturday Masses in the summertime are conducive to maintaining the significance of Sunday.

That is an issue for canon law. Do you have evidence it violates the law? Either we obey the Church, or we do not. I am not the Church, I try to obey Her.

And so, except for good reasons (the Saturday Mass is more revererent; other legitimate obligations; etc), Sunday observance is preferable to some daytime Saturday Mass. Wanting to sleep in on Sunday does not strike me as a good reason.

This is your opinion. Where does the Church teach one needs a specific reason to go to one mass over another? Laziness is wrong no matter the day.

How am I, or the Church, “imposing conditions”?

Again, the canon does not say one may only attend the vigil mass for certain reasons. It is my undestanding this was changed since 1983. If I am wrong I will be happy to admit it.

The Church suggests; she cannot enforce. If you want to take a strictly legalistic view (the bare minimum and no more), that’s fine though poverty-stricken.

Legalistic view? Where do I usually hear that term? Obeying the law is not a legalism.

The Church does prefer keeping Sunday holy—just read the Apostolic letter I linked to. And, frankly, I’ll accept my priest’s opinion that going to Saturday Mass solely so that one can sleep in on Sunday is not in keeping with the spirit of keeping the Lord’s Day holy and devoted to God.

We all agree we need to keep Sunday holy. Where we disagree is the concept that one must have a preference to attend on Sunday as if the vigil mass is only for special needs.

 

[Sherlock]

You’re missing my point entirely, because you’re looking at it in a purely legal sense, that is, is it “wrong” (according to canon law) to go to one Mass over another? I’m not addressing that, and I would guess that canon law doesn’t draw fine distinctions about a person’s motivations in this regard.

Whether it’s GOOD for a person’s spiritual life to go to Saturday Mass just so he can sleep in on Sunday is a different matter entirely. My priest says it’s not good, and I agree with him, based on the importance the Church places on Sunday worship. I think it contributes to a certain laxness about making Sunday the Lord’s Day, and I am troubled by vigil Masses that are supposed to be held in the evening, but in reality are held in the afternoon. Legal? I suppose. Good idea? No. It’s a bit like confession: we aren’t REQUIRED to go to confession frequently, but it is spiritually advisable to do so.

 

[fix]

Sherlock:

You’re missing my point entirely, because you’re looking at it in a purely legal sense, that is, is it “wrong” (according to canon law) to go to one Mass over another? I’m not addressing that, and I would guess that canon law doesn’t draw fine distinctions about a person’s motivations in this regard.

Whether it’s GOOD for a person’s spiritual life to go to Saturday Mass just so he can sleep in on Sunday is a different matter entirely. My priest says it’s not good, and I agree with him, based on the importance the Church places on Sunday worship. I think it contributes to a certain laxness about making Sunday the Lord’s Day, and I am troubled by vigil Masses that are supposed to be held in the evening, but in reality are held in the afternoon. Legal? I suppose. Good idea? No. It’s a bit like confession: we aren’t REQUIRED to go to confession frequently, but it is spiritually advisable to do so.

Perhaps we are talking past each other. I agree laziness is a poor excuse, but that is not central to the day of mass isssue. My point, again, is that going to a mass on Sunday can be no better spiritually for such a person if the attitude is no different.

Some colleges have a mass at 10:00 pm on Sunday night. One may attend such a mass with the same mindset as the vigil mass goer does to sleep in on Sunday. It is not only the day that is the issue.

 

[jrabs]

fix:

Perhaps we are talking past each other. I agree laziness is a poor excuse, but that is not central to the day of mass isssue. My point, again, is that going to a mass on Sunday can be no better spiritually for such a person if the attitude is no different.

Some colleges have a mass at 10:00 pm on Sunday night. One may attend such a mass with the same mindset as the vigil mass goer does to sleep in on Sunday. It is not only the day that is the issue.

Fix - I agree 100% with you. I get your point.