Saturday Sabbath

[chrisb]

I will agree Emperor Constantine did not change the day of the Sabbath. He changed the day of rest, he did not like Jews. he became a Christian some time later. But some of the Christians still honored the Sabbath at that time.

Any evidence to this effect my friend?

In this day and age we have MANY murderers, thieves and Vagabonds, to which the laws of the land are dwindling, in a thousand years time it will probable be the norm, and no laws. Will this be right.

I can’t speak for the Roman Catholic Church but I can tell you that Great Vespers continues to be observed on Saturday evenings just as it was observed 1000 years ago in the Eastern Church.

If Church goers slowly dwindled so that they only went to Christmas Mass once a year, would this be the new church tradition. while this be right?

As I said, I can speak for Roman Catholics but I can tell you that we Orthodox faithfully live the Liturgical Life of the Ancient Church today.

Just because man decides something is inconvenient for what ever reason doesn’t make it right.

With the coming of our Lord we stand in the embrace of the New Creation not bound to the Old. I understand you see this as some kind of laxity of our Observance of the Law but I can only tell you that I’d bet I spend more time at Temple on Saturday Great Vespers than most sabbatarians do observing the Sabbath and I still have the Divine Liturgy of St. Chrysostom to look forward to on the following Lord’s Day.

Our Lord spelled that out very clearly to the Jews.

Well as I have said in Christ the Old Law is fulfilled and we close the seventh day of the Old Creation with Great Vespers and we celebrate the New Creation in Christ on His Day of Resurrection. That is all that I can say friend.

 

[solja247]

Any evidence to this effect my friend?

Indeed

Socrates writes a century after Lucian: "For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."36

Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, and Augustine, the more celebrated bishop of Africa, both contemporaries of Vigilantins, described the interesting situation. Ambrose said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome he fasted on Saturday and observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb, “When you are in Rome, do as Rome does.” Augustine deplored the fact that in two neighboring churches in Africa, one observed the seventh-day Sabbath, another fasted on it.35

Do you know another interesting thing is that most of the great reformers kept the Sabbath.

I have read all the posts and now biblically speaking I am going to defend the Sabbath.

How can we be so sure that anything changed on the death of Jesus Our Lord?

Sure Jesus and the prophets of the OT said he would be the lamb etc. but how can we know what changed and what stayed???

Mat 27:51 And, behold! The veil of the temple was torn into two from above as far as below. And the earth quaked, and the rocks were sheared!

Does this signify the change?

well to a degree. But none of this signifies any change. With Jesus dying on the cross what did change?

One thing. not the ending of ceremonial laws but like the words of Hebrews.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

**Jesus became our High Preist. **

When Jesus became our High preist the covenant changed. Now we can go to Jesus just like 1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrightouesness” Now let us jump to a misinterpretted verse.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

If someone here can explain to me how the Sabbath day revealed the coming of Jesus. then I believe this is talking about the law of moses. 2 keyword here is ‘judge’ ‘sabbath’

I am sure all of you are know your Jewish understanding of the Sabbath day and they littereally didnt do anything on the Sabbath Day did they? They only walked certain miles etc… (The only 2things you cant do on the Sabbath is buy and sell and work. other than that you can do whatever you please. Of course since God sanctified the Sabbath, Sabbath keepers should do the same)

If Paul was regarding to the observance of the Sabbath Day, Dont you agree with me that it isnt very clear? How clear does he make himslef with observance of circumsion that our hearts should be circumcised? He makes himself very clear.

Another point to make about the Sabbath. How much fuss did the teachers of the Law and the pharisees make about Jesus healing on the Sabbath Day?

They made a HUGE fuss!

We all know that Jesus kept the Sabbath Day. So if Peter, Paul and the other apostles changed the day to Sunday. Why would the Sanherdin challenge Paul on the regard of his Jewishness if he didnt keep the Sabbath?

Do you think the apostles would of been able to grow so much if they forgot about the Sabbath? The answer is No. Why would Jews listen to these men if they didnt keep the Sabbaht Day Which God rested on when he created the Earth? The Jews were people of the book to make them believe contrary to the book, they would had to been brain washed. What about Jesus? Jesus was throughout scripture David recognised who Jesus would be, Daniel, Isiah etc. The apostles used scripture to show the Jews where Jesus came into the whole picture. So know my question is where in the OT would there be evidence for the Jews to forget the Day God commanded them to sanctufy?

Secondly was Jesus under the Law of Moses?

I dont believe so. The Law of Moses saw in black and White. Jesus saw in shades of grey. Jesus taught contrary to the law of moses for an example.
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So if Jesus taught contrary to the Law of moses why did He, God, keep the Sabbath Day?

Now lets go to the historical aspect.

What did Alexandra have in common?

They were heavily pagan.

It wasnt hard nor did it take to much time for the Sabbath to be changed to the pagan holy day. If we look at other religions for an example zoroism (zoroaster) something like that. it was a countrfit of judaism it did most things similar to Judaism however to worshiped their god on sunday. they had the same levitcal order as the jews many, many other things were similar. Sunday was a pagan day of worship for the Sun. Sun Day. Just like Saturday is the day of worship for Saturn. The church of Syria however was Jewish and understood the Law and the Sabbath etc.

Thats all I have to say about the Sabbath so far.

 

[solja247]

Now with the Waldenses post.

Whenever, therefore, in the following sketches, the terms Berengarians, Petrobrusians, Henricians, Arnoldists, Waldenses, Albigenses, Leonists, or the poor men of Lyons, Lollards, Cathari, etc, occur, it must be understood that they intend a people, who agreed in certain leading principles, however they might differ in some smaller matters, and that all of them were by the Catholics comprehended under the general name of Waldenses.1

The waldeses mentioned in wikipedia are the poor men of lyons. which I am sure they were poor lol.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Indeed

Socrates writes a century after Lucian: "For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."36

Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, and Augustine, the more celebrated bishop of Africa, both contemporaries of Vigilantins, described the interesting situation. Ambrose said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome he fasted on Saturday and observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb, “When you are in Rome, do as Rome does.” Augustine deplored the fact that in two neighboring churches in Africa, one observed the seventh-day Sabbath, another fasted on it.35

Your post includes what look to be footnotes. Where did you copy and paste it from?

St. Augustine actually fasted on different days than the Romans did as was the custom in North Africa (probably Wednesday and Friday instead of Friday and Saturday as in Rome.) When St. Monica asked St. Ambrose what to do because the Romans fasted on different days than the North Africans did, THAT’S when St. Ambrose delivered his famous quote.

Where does St. Augustine deplore the fact that some African Churches don’t observe the Jewish Sabbath? Which of his books, The Confessions, The City of God? Please tell me where so I can look it up in my library.

Please inform me which Sacred Mysteries that you quote this Socrates writing about that the Seventh Day Adventists celebrate. You don’t believe that the Eucharist is the actual Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. Do you Baptize on Saturday or something? You don’t even follow the Sacramental life that the Early Church did.

That’s enough for one post.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

St. Ignatius wrote Seven Epistles to various Churches. He was killed for being a Christian around A.D. 107. In his letter to the Magnesians he writes:

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master—how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.

If, then, those who were conversant with the ancient Scriptures came to newness of hope, expecting the coming of Christ, as the Lord teaches us when He says, “If ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me; and again, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it, and was glad; for before Abraham was, I am;" how shall we be able to live without Him? The prophets were His servants, and foresaw Him by the Spirit, and waited for Him as their Teacher, and expected Him as their Lord and Saviour, saying, “He will come and save us. Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for “he that does not work, let him not eat. For say the [holy] oracles, “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread.” But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, “To the end, for the eighth day,on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ, whom the children of perdition, the enemies of the Saviour, deny, “whose god is their belly, who mind earthly things, who are “lovers of pleasure, and not lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. These make merchandise of Christ, corrupting His word, and giving up Jesus to sale: they are corrupters of women, and covetous of other men’s possessions, swallowing up wealth insatiably; from whom may ye be delivered by the mercy of God through our Lord Jesus Christ!

Then in the next Chapter he writes:

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God… It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.

In my estimation Seventh Day Adventism is nothing more than a rehashing of the old heresy of the Judaizers that was condemned at the Council of Jerusalem.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Why would the Sanherdin challenge Paul on the regard of his Jewishness if he didnt keep the Sabbath?

Probably because he was a Pharisee and was trained by Gamaliel. :ehh:

 

[bpbasilphx]

In my estimation Seventh Day Adventism is nothing more than a rehashing of the old heresy of the Judaizers that was condemned at the Council of Jerusalem.

**There’s more to it than that.

They pick and choose which Sabbaths they observe, even though “sabbath” in the OT means more than the weekly sabbath.

There is also a big strain of Arianism in their Christology.

In fact, the SDA has all 4 marks of a cult:

1. Defective Christology.
2. Doctrinal novelties.
3. Authoritative extra-Biblical revelation.
4. Radical sectarianism.

And, FWIW, all Orthodox jurisdictions require converts from SDA to receive canonical Orthodox baptism.**

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Yep and we need to also recognize that it’s not a Sabbath or Lord’s Day proposition but a Sabbath ‘and’ Lord’s Day proposition. The problem with the Western Church is that they no longer have Great Vespers on Saturdays to ‘close’ the Sabbath Observance as the Ancient Church has done from the beginning.

Pope Benedict is celebrating Vespers right now on TV.

 

[eelpis]

Error has no rights.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Error has no rights.

 

[chrisb]

Pope Benedict is celebrating Vespers right now on TV.

The Western Church no longer celebrates the Vigils of Holy Days nor the Great Vespers on Saturdays. Observing Vespers here and there isn’t going to nourish the people. The Western Church needs to return to Holy Tradition and bring back Vigils and Great Vespers and restore the ‘meat’ to it’s Liturgical Tradition.

All that said I personally have a great deal of respect for the Western Patriarch Benedict XVI.

 

[LRThunder]

The Western Church no longer celebrates the Vigils of Holy Days nor the Great Vespers on Saturdays. Observing Vespers here and there isn’t going to nourish the people. The Western Church needs to return to Holy Tradition and bring back Vigils and Great Vespers and restore the ‘meat’ to it’s Liturgical Tradition.

All that said I personally have a great deal of respect for the Western Patriarch Benedict XVI.

We don’t celebrate the Vigils of Holy Days? We do celebrate Christmas Vigil Mass as well as Midnight Mass. As for Easter, we most certainly do celebrate the Easter Vigil, or are you referring to other Holy Days apart from Christmas and Easter?

 

[chrisb]

We don’t celebrate the Vigils of Holy Days? We do celebrate Christmas Vigil Mass as well as Midnight Mass. As for Easter, we most certainly do celebrate the Easter Vigil, or are you referring to other Holy Days apart from Christmas and Easter?

Exactly, you now have only two Vigils. In the Ancient Church there was always a Vigil before every one of the 12 Great Feasts. The Western Church is now down to only two.

 

[solja247]

In my estimation Seventh Day Adventism is nothing more than a rehashing of the old heresy of the Judaizers that was condemned at the Council of Jerusalem.

lol I am sure Jerusalem Christians kept many things we hold important the same as us Adventists (e.g. Sabbath Day, Unclean meat etc.) Since we are people of the OT and NT.

What I find interesting is that the catholic doctrine has matured overtime. It is not the simplicity of what Christianity used to be.

Please inform me which Sacred Mysteries that you quote this Socrates writing about that the Seventh Day Adventists celebrate. You don’t believe that the Eucharist is the actual Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. Do you Baptize on Saturday or something?

Sabbath is a very beautiful Day giving one day to God every week is a something sacred.

St. Ignatius wrote Seven Epistles to various Churches. He was killed for being a Christian around A.D. 107. In his letter to the Magnesians he writes:

lol

It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity

no comment.

Probably because he was a Pharisee and was trained by Gamaliel.

yes but if he was not Jewish-Christian why would he be tested with his Jewishness?

There is also a big strain of Arianism in their Christology.

In fact, the SDA has all 4 marks of a cult:

1. Defective Christology.
2. Doctrinal novelties.
3. Authoritative extra-Biblical revelation.
4. Radical sectarianism.

lol. I see this, I guess because we go by the Bible and Bible alone (including the Sabbath)

Now if you are talking about Ellen White as well. I take her writings just as any other spritual book I read. The Desire of Ages is really beautiful and for some reason Adventism dominates in the Health Message. Was it becasue she got messed up when she was hit with a rock? or is it because God was calling her for a message. A message of health, a message from God. Atm I am uncertain with the doctrine of investigated judgement since I do not believe it is biblical enough.

The Western Church no longer celebrates the Vigils of Holy Days nor the Great Vespers on Saturdays. Observing Vespers here and there isn’t going to nourish the people. The Western Church needs to return to Holy Tradition and bring back Vigils and Great Vespers and restore the ‘meat’ to it’s Liturgical Tradition.

Actually the western church needs to observe a holy 24 hours like Adventists. why? because Adventism has one of the highest attendancy and catholics yeah one of the lowest. Even the pope understands this. He goes as far to call Sunday the Sabbaath Day.