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Bob1
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If the Jews we as well educated today and questioned there Rabies perhaps the might still have been the chosen race.
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theistgal
Guest
Yes, we should all question our vaccinations.
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FCEGM
Guest
That is not at all what Matt is implying nor what I am saying. All the commandments reflect the natural law, and we will be punished for our failure to live according to our hearts’ knowledge, but not according to the punishments proscribed by the Law. If, however, we live according to the Law and not according to the new Covenant of Love, we are de facto subject to the punishments proscribed for infractions against the Law even if our secular society doesn’t mete them out.Quote
“I think you might need to reread Frances’ posts. How did you come to that conclusion?”
Frances Post
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“Commandments are a part. If we are bound by the 10 Commandments as written, then we must also be subject to the specific punishments prescribed in the OT for breaking each Commandment. Yet, we are not”
clearly states I am not “subject to the specific punishments prescribed in the OT”
perhaps i have read this wrong however it is difficult to read it any other way.
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“Observance of the Sabbath is not a part of natural law written on the hearts of man - the other commandments do deal directly with morality.”
So one can forget commandments 1,2,3 as well! I think not.
The natural law (written on our hearts) doesn’t specify on what day(s) they should be observed. So, our hearts tell us that we should worship our Creator, but our hearts don’t tell us that our worship must be on the Sabbath.
The Council of Laodicea simply reflects in its canons what was already being practiced by the Church as it celebrates the Resurrection on the Lord’s Day; this can be seen in the first chapter of Revelation. It can be seen in Acts 20:7 where the Apostles and disciples met “for the breaking of the bread.”
It can be seen in 1 Cor. 16:1-2, with the collection taken from the assembled on the First Day of the week. So, such practices as almsgiving and divine praise which the Jews attached especially to the Sabbath have been transferred to the Day of Resurrection.
It can be seen in the letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians (c.a. A.D. 110); St. Ignatius, who with St. Polycarp was a hearer of St. John and the immediate successor of St. Peter to the bishopric of Antioch (so you’d think he’d know a thing or two about when the Christians were to worship) wrote: “If, then, those who walked in ancient customs came to a new hope, no longer sabbathing but living by the Lord’s Day, on which we came to life through Him and through His death. . .”
It can be seen in the Didache (A.D. 140): “On the Lord’s Day of the Lord gather together, break bread and give thanks after confessing you transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure.”
It can be seen in the First Apology of St. Justin, Martyr (c.a. A.D. 146-155): “The Day of the Sun is the day on which we all gather in a common meeting, because it is the first day, the day on which God, changing darkness and matter, created the world, and it is the day on which Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.”
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FCEGM
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St. Peter had some words you should heed: “As our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand, that the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures,” 2 Peter 3:15-16.
That it was Easter that your wondering began should have given you a bit of a clue, don’t you think? And each Sunday is a “little Easter”. Jesus lay in His tomb on the Sabbath, but on the First Day He rose from the dead, inaugurating the New Creation (the First Creation began, likewise, on the First Day). Jesus changed the law by the very fact of His rising, not on the Sabbath, but on the First Day of the week. And, as we see in John 20:6, it was on the Day of Resurrection, the First Day, that the Lord breathed on the Apostles and bestowed upon them the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive or retain sins. Jesus entered into His Rest on the First Day and will come again to bring us to our rest in Him (we pray!), thus we are not with those who celebrate the Sabbath in hope of the Messiah coming for the first time; rather the Church anticipates each Sunday its coming to its own rest in Him when He returns to bring His Bride to Himself.
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Bob1
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**Chapter 65 BAPTIZEN of good citizen keeping of the comandments **
Ok they kept the Lords day (Sunday) for worship. but still kept the Sabbath.
sorry slow reader you gave me a lot to read .
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Bob1
Guest
ok
read the last not much was known about prier bishops of Antioch but Peters teachings to them are in the “acts”. while looking in the acts I can across this
Upon Paul’s arrival in Jerusalem, he was confronted with the rumor of teaching against the Law of Moses (21:21). To prove that he was “living in obedience to the law”, Paul took a biblical vow along with some others
So Paul was willing to make Biblical vow that he kept all the commandments.
sort of underlines the fact they did honor the Sabbath, even if they then prayed on the Sunday
read the last not much was known about prier bishops of Antioch but Peters teachings to them are in the “acts”. while looking in the acts I can across this
Upon Paul’s arrival in Jerusalem, he was confronted with the rumor of teaching against the Law of Moses (21:21). To prove that he was “living in obedience to the law”, Paul took a biblical vow along with some others
So Paul was willing to make Biblical vow that he kept all the commandments.
sort of underlines the fact they did honor the Sabbath, even if they then prayed on the Sunday
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Eileen_T
Guest
I think you are on thin ice here.
**St. Justin Martyr, who died in 167 A.D., **wrote, “On Sunday we meet to celebrate the Lord’s Supper and read the Gospels and Sacred Scripture, the first day on which God changed darkness, and made the world, and on which Christ rose from the dead.”
Earlier still, **St. Ignatius, who died in 107 A.D., **says, “If we still live according to the Jewish observances, we confess that we do not accept the grace of Christ. Those who once lived according to the Old Law have come to a new hope, no longer observing the Jewish Sabbath, but the Lord’s day on which our Life rose from the dead.”
In the** 2nd or 3rd century Tertullian** wrote, “We, as tradition has taught us, observe the day of the Lord’s resurrection.”
St. Augustine wrote in the 4th century, “The Apostles and their contemporaries sanctioned the dedication of Sunday to the worship of God.”
Additional evidence of the near-universality of Sunday comes from:
Aristides of Athens (c. 160), who criticized Jewish Sabbaths (Bauckham, p. 267, citing Apol. 14).
Theophilus, bishop of Antioch (c. 180), when quoting the Ten Commandments, omitted the Sabbath in Apology to Autolycus 3.9 (ANF 2:114).
**The Epistle to Diognetus (late second century?) **criticizes Jews’ “superstitions about sabbaths” and other practices (Bauckham, p. 267)
Hegesippus, a Palestinian-born Jew, traveled through many cities on his way to Rome** (c. 180) **and “found the same doctrine among them all” (Eusebius, Church History 4.19-22; Maxwell and Damsteegt, p. 85).
**Clement of Alexandria (c. 190) **equated the Lord’s day and the eighth day in Miscellanies 5:14 (ANF 2:469).
The evidence of the early writings (as well as those quoted before) give strong evidence that the apostles taught the new day of Observance and worship was Sunday not Saturday.
To dispute the right of the Church to change the day of Worship of God from Saturday (the day chosen by the Jews for Sabbath) to Sunday, is to imply that the Church founded by Jesus, given His Authority and guaranteed His protection, fell into apostasy even before the last Apostle was dead - and all without protest from the faithful!
Councils were usually called to clarify some teaching that was called into dispute. I magine by the 4th century there were still some, probably among the Jewish converts, who felt that the day of worship should be Saturday rather than Sunday, and that was the reason for Canon 29.
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solja247
Guest
Hey Guys I am new around here…
The church in Jereusalem kept the Sabbath. All four gosphels talk about Jesus keeping the Sabbath. Why would this be if the apostles kept sunday? (The four gosphel were written for different kind of people) It would make no sense to include the Sabbath if it was no longer anymore necessary.
When the church in Jeursalem was destroyed the Church of Rome became the head of christianity in a short time after a second wave of Jewish revolts the Roman Emporer became complete anti-Jewish Judaism wasnt considered a religion anymore. Rome destoryed the Sanherdin stopped the Jews and Jewish christians from visiting Jerusalem and out lawed the keeping of the Sabbath Day and the Passover. Church or rome changed Sabbath to Sunday and Pasover to easter Sunday. Futher more. if people wanted to keep the Sabbath they were to fast on that day (thats what the church of Rome said) so slowly but surely the Sabbath was drained away.
I can tell you that it was the church of rome which changed it from Sabbath to Sunday. Peter, Paul and the other apostles kept the Sabbath (Paul did cermony of the Jews to prove himself to the Jews that he was still under the law)
The church in Jereusalem kept the Sabbath. All four gosphels talk about Jesus keeping the Sabbath. Why would this be if the apostles kept sunday? (The four gosphel were written for different kind of people) It would make no sense to include the Sabbath if it was no longer anymore necessary.
When the church in Jeursalem was destroyed the Church of Rome became the head of christianity in a short time after a second wave of Jewish revolts the Roman Emporer became complete anti-Jewish Judaism wasnt considered a religion anymore. Rome destoryed the Sanherdin stopped the Jews and Jewish christians from visiting Jerusalem and out lawed the keeping of the Sabbath Day and the Passover. Church or rome changed Sabbath to Sunday and Pasover to easter Sunday. Futher more. if people wanted to keep the Sabbath they were to fast on that day (thats what the church of Rome said) so slowly but surely the Sabbath was drained away.
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Like
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So, solja247, Who started your church & when?
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Eileen_T
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solja247
Have you actually read the writings of the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers? I am not meaning extracts in a SDA-approved book. Probably not is my guess, because they wrote Catholic doctrine from the very first century. Many of them never saw Rome, except those who were taken there to be martyred for the Faith.
The SDA church ws not around in those times.
Paul wrote: 2 Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
He went to the synagogues on the Jewish Sabbath in order to preach the Good News to the Jews who were assembled there - and the Gentiles would have gone to hear him speak. But the verse above indicates very clearly that he would not have worshipped with them.
The early Christians met together on the 1st day of the week to “break bread” ie to eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood as He had commanded them to do. The Christian worship services were not for unbelievers but were kept private for the baptised believers.
Have you actually read the writings of the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers? I am not meaning extracts in a SDA-approved book. Probably not is my guess, because they wrote Catholic doctrine from the very first century. Many of them never saw Rome, except those who were taken there to be martyred for the Faith.
The SDA church ws not around in those times.
Paul wrote: 2 Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
He went to the synagogues on the Jewish Sabbath in order to preach the Good News to the Jews who were assembled there - and the Gentiles would have gone to hear him speak. But the verse above indicates very clearly that he would not have worshipped with them.
The early Christians met together on the 1st day of the week to “break bread” ie to eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood as He had commanded them to do. The Christian worship services were not for unbelievers but were kept private for the baptised believers.
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solja247
Guest
Well to be honest with you I think all Christian churches were started by God.
So my answer is God.
When? my church in about 1844 or something like that but what I believe is I think what the apsotles believed.
Yes I have. Very interesting they were. I have only studied the Sabbath deeply though. espicially the change and who kept it through the years. (its hard to find books about that since the jesuits did like to destroy all heretic material)
Wrong. Breaking bread is eating. Jesus broke bread too.
The Day Jesus commanded us to drink and his body was on a thursday or wednesday? I think.
Paul was a Jew you should find this very interesting
Act 21:26 Then taking the men on the next day,** having been purified with them, Paul went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of the purification, until the offering should be offered for each one of them. **Act 21:27 But when the seven days were about to be completed, having seen him in the temple, the Jews from Asia stirred up all the crowd, and they laid hands on him,
**Act 21:28 crying out, Men, Israelites, help! This is the man who teaches all everywhere against the people and the Law and this place. And even more, he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place. **
Act 23:6 But knowing that the one part consisted of Sadducees, and the other of Pharisees, Paul cried out in the sanhedrin, Men, brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am being judged concerning hope and resurrection of the dead!
Paul went to a jewish traditional event to prove he was Jewish.
And when Paul can bear witness for himself what does he say? He says he is a pharisee!
why? because the only thing which had changed was that the messiah had come and since the messiah had come the cermonial side of things was done away with.
However, The Sabbath Day is not ceremonial but in the fourth or third commadment.
It isnt even Mosaic. it is from God himself.
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Bob1
Guest
Just read James/John and the ACTS which made good reading.
In both James and John the word Sabbath was used frequently.
However it was in the ACTS that spelled it out,
Act 15: 5-21
James gives his Judgment on what Gentiles are required to follow in the new covenant. although he did not actually specify that they honor the Laws of Moses, he did continue to say that **“For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” **
meaning they would already have known them.
So even if later followers thought moving the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday it is not what the apostles taught.
In both James and John the word Sabbath was used frequently.
However it was in the ACTS that spelled it out,
Act 15: 5-21
James gives his Judgment on what Gentiles are required to follow in the new covenant. although he did not actually specify that they honor the Laws of Moses, he did continue to say that **“For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” **
meaning they would already have known them.
So even if later followers thought moving the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday it is not what the apostles taught.
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solja247
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What I have found even more interesting is quotes from people like socrates.
should Lucian observe Saturday as sacred? It was the general custom. The church historian Socrates writes a century after Lucian: "For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."36 Here we note the union between the church at Rome and at Alexandria, and their common antagonism to the seventh-day Sabbath.
Sozomen, a contemporary of this Socrates, and also a church historian, writes likewise, "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."37
If socrates isnt a reliable source then I do not know who is.
But for sure the church in Jerusalem kept the Sabbath. I found an interesting quote by John Calvin. If the Sabbath was just a cerimonally law and done away with then technically speaking Sunday is to and even though the day changed it is still cerimonal. But it still serves the same purpose as the Sabbath therefore it wouldnt be binding. (I kind of summarised what he said)
If people dont understand that, think of it like this Sabbath and the cerimonies = an apple. Sabbath was changed to Sunday it still is an apple. since the cerimonal things were done away with at the cross all apples are not needed in the Christian walk. therefore wether Sabbath or Sunday it is still an apple which has no relevance for today.
should Lucian observe Saturday as sacred? It was the general custom. The church historian Socrates writes a century after Lucian: "For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."36 Here we note the union between the church at Rome and at Alexandria, and their common antagonism to the seventh-day Sabbath.
Sozomen, a contemporary of this Socrates, and also a church historian, writes likewise, "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."37
If socrates isnt a reliable source then I do not know who is.
But for sure the church in Jerusalem kept the Sabbath. I found an interesting quote by John Calvin. If the Sabbath was just a cerimonally law and done away with then technically speaking Sunday is to and even though the day changed it is still cerimonal. But it still serves the same purpose as the Sabbath therefore it wouldnt be binding. (I kind of summarised what he said)
If people dont understand that, think of it like this Sabbath and the cerimonies = an apple. Sabbath was changed to Sunday it still is an apple. since the cerimonal things were done away with at the cross all apples are not needed in the Christian walk. therefore wether Sabbath or Sunday it is still an apple which has no relevance for today.
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PKinsale
Guest
I think we often run into difficulties when we read the Bible, assume something from it, and then look at Church teaching or practice and wonder why there’s a contradiction. It’s sort of a backwards approach to take and I wonder whether some of the folks are trying to throw some bombs into the forum on purpose. I’ve seen threads such as this before, often started by newer posters as innocent queries.
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solja247
Guest
I wanted to see that my belief system on the Sabath was correct. I guess it is I have traced it back as early as Jerusalem. However, if, like all catholics, say that the pope is infallible I understand why you guys dont keep the Sabbath but not other protestants who say that the pope or the early church fathers has no authoriaty over them.
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Eileen_T
Guest
I am curious how you traced it back? When I studied Scripture and the writings of the earliest Christians that were not included in the canon of Scripture in my journey that led to me becoming convinced the Catholic Church held the fullness of Truth, it wasn’t one single issue that convinced me. Although I know believe that the issue of Authority is what matters.
What I am wondering is: did you decide the Saturday Sabbath issue was to be the clincher, and if so, why?
I wonder this also.
Non-Catholic Christians accept that the Catholic Church was inspired by the Holy Spirit to proclaim which of the numerous writings were to be included in the Canon of Scripture and which were to be rejected. Most accept the Catholic Church’s Authority to make Sunday the day of worship, 25 December to celebrate Christmas (Christ’s Mass), when to celebrate the Holy Tridium (Easter) etc…
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solja247
Guest
I traced it back with a lot of reading, scripture and understanding the context of the time. I have a question for you, I have looked into the early church fathers. What I understand is that the church of rome and and Alexandra were becoming paganised. i.e. Christmas, Easter etc. so I find that the church of Syria is biblically based didnt accept holy tradition. Anyway I find it interesting that people like Saint Jerome who wrote the Latin Vulgate Bible. Promote asectism and celibacy and things of these accord. Do you want to know why it is hard to find record of other churches? I am not saying the papacy did this but the jesuits and fanatical catholics destroyed a lot of the recordings of the churches who were considered ‘heretic’ even people like Patrick and Colomba were taken and turned into catholic role models, when there is an overwhelming evidence that these two were not but from the Celtic church.
I wanted to go deep in history of the Sabbath because things didnt match up. How did the Waldenses get the bible and believe things like the Sabbath. The Adventist church prides itself (Which is a problem because it creates sepreation with other christians in Christ) on the Sabbath. I wanted to know what made the Sabbath so special, how it was changed and does what I have been told match with history?
So far I have learnt much more than what I could of expected.
Christmas and Easter is now a western traditon it doesnt really promote catholicism I dont believe.
If I was not to uphold Christmas or Easter I would look like a nut job. Now if I was back in the day when there was much rivalary between the easter and the Passover I would of kept the Passover.
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Volodymyr_988
Guest
Are you sure you want to be associated with the Waldensians, since they held beliefs that were so diametrically opposed to your SDA tenents?
From Wikipedia
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Volodymyr_988
Guest
Also, if Jesuits and other “fanatical” Catholics destroyed records (as you write) how do you know if you can trust what has been left? It is entirely possible that the good and the bad were destroyed alike.
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chrisb
Guest
AD 90: “One the Lord’s own day gather together and break bread and give thanks.” Didache, 14:1
AD 107: *“Let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days.” *St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter IX
AD 130: *“Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me… Wherefore, we keep… the day… on which Jesus rose again from the dead.” *Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter XV
AD 160: *“There is no other thing for which you blame us, my friends [speaking to the Jews], is there than this? That we do not live according to the Law, nor… do we observe the Sabbath as you do.”
“For we to would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you - namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts.”
“But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented on the sins which they have committed, they shall received the inheritanc… although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumised, nor observe the feasts.”* St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue wit Trypho, Chapters X, XVIII, and XXVI.
**
AD 190:** “He, fulfillment of the precept, according to the Gospel, keeps the Lord’s day… glorifying the Lord’s resurrection in himself.” Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVII
AD 197: “For we solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath.” Tertullian, Apology, Chapter 16
The truth is, there is not a single historical text that speaks of Christians observing the Sabbath as their primary day of worship.
So, despite sabbatarian claims to the contrary, it is an unavoidable historical fact that Sunday was established as the highest and holiest of days long before the councils and proclamations of the fourth century. It was observed by the very first Christians and by all succeeding generations. In the end, the only way sabbatarians can really refute the historical evidence that Sunday is the God-ordained day of Christian worship is to accuse the early Christians - including the very first Christians - of apostasy.
AD 107: *“Let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days.” *St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter IX
AD 130: *“Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me… Wherefore, we keep… the day… on which Jesus rose again from the dead.” *Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter XV
AD 160: *“There is no other thing for which you blame us, my friends [speaking to the Jews], is there than this? That we do not live according to the Law, nor… do we observe the Sabbath as you do.”
“For we to would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you - namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts.”
“But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented on the sins which they have committed, they shall received the inheritanc… although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumised, nor observe the feasts.”* St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue wit Trypho, Chapters X, XVIII, and XXVI.
**
AD 190:** “He, fulfillment of the precept, according to the Gospel, keeps the Lord’s day… glorifying the Lord’s resurrection in himself.” Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVII
AD 197: “For we solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath.” Tertullian, Apology, Chapter 16
The truth is, there is not a single historical text that speaks of Christians observing the Sabbath as their primary day of worship.
So, despite sabbatarian claims to the contrary, it is an unavoidable historical fact that Sunday was established as the highest and holiest of days long before the councils and proclamations of the fourth century. It was observed by the very first Christians and by all succeeding generations. In the end, the only way sabbatarians can really refute the historical evidence that Sunday is the God-ordained day of Christian worship is to accuse the early Christians - including the very first Christians - of apostasy.
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