Saturday - Sunday mass?

[magnusbar]

I went to church today to celebrate the Feast of Mary Magdalene. The mass was at 1PM.

However, I soon realised that that the mass readings were for Sunday (tomorrow). I have heard that the Saturday Vigil shouldn’t be before 6 PM. Does it fulfill my Sunday Obligation?

 

[1ke]

It is odd that the readings were for Sunday, perhaps someone got confused and read the wrong readings. Or, perhaps your bishop has set a different time for the Sunday mass to start on Saturdays.

This is a question you will have to ask someone locally, such as your pastor. We cannot answer you.

In general, we can tell you that the Sunday mass on Saturday shouldn’t start before 4 p.m. We can’t tell you what exceptions may have been made where you live or why.

Also, the readings, while important, are not relevant as to whether or not you fulfilled your obligation. You could attend a ritual Mass on a Saturday night or on Sunday and the readings might be different from the Sunday readings but your still fulfill your obligation.

 

[magnusbar]

I don’t think they read the wrong readings because the priest wore green (Feast of Mary Magdalene is white).

On the other hand there where only two altar candles, and not six what is usual on a Sunday or Holy day of Obligation.

 

[1ke]

I don’t think they read the wrong readings because the priest wore green (Feast of Mary Magdalene is white).

On the other hand there where only two altar candles, and not six what is usual on a Sunday or Holy day of Obligation.

Candles have nothing to do with whether or not the mass was a weekday or Sunday mass. The answer to your question lies with your pastor.

 

[FrDavid96]

I went to church today to celebrate the Feast of Mary Magdalene. The mass was at 1PM.

However, I soon realised that that the mass readings were for Sunday (tomorrow). I have heard that the Saturday Vigil shouldn’t be before 6 PM. Does it fulfill my Sunday Obligation?

According to canon law (c. 1248), a Saturday Mass must be in the evening in order to satisfy the Sunday obligation.

Nowhere does canon law say that a Mass before evening will satisfy the obligation.

The Latin word used is “vespere” which corresponds to 4 o’clock PM on the modern day clock.

 

[Fuerza]

According to canon law (c. 1248), a Saturday Mass must be in the evening in order to satisfy the Sunday obligation.

Nowhere does canon law say that a Mass before evening will satisfy the obligation.

The Latin word used is “vespere” which corresponds to 4 o’clock PM on the modern day clock.

That was always my understanding as well, but Catholics in some other parts of the world report Masses as early as 12pm being used in fulfillment of the obligation. Even in the US, the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception explicitly lists its 12:10 pm Saturday Mass as fulfilling the Sunday obligation (icjax.org/mass-schedule.html). Is it possible that they are going off a very literal reading of the creation story, which divides the day into morning and evening? That’s about the only way that I could see anything before 4pm as beings considered part of the evening.

 

[Vico]

That was always my understanding as well, but Catholics in some other parts of the world report Masses as early as 12pm being used in fulfillment of the obligation. Even in the US, the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception explicitly lists its 12:10 pm Saturday Mass as fulfilling the Sunday obligation (icjax.org/mass-schedule.html). Is it possible that they are going off a very literal reading of the creation story, which divides the day into morning and evening? That’s about the only way that I could see anything before 4pm as beings considered part of the evening.

Notably there are two parishes in the USA, that I know of, that have Saturday vigil Mass @ 2:30 PM that fulfills the Sunday obligation:

Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception
416 W. 12th Street
Kansas City, MO 64105
kcgolddome.org/page.php?ID=15

Guardian Angel Cathedral
302 Cathedral Way
Las Vegas, NV 89109
gaclv.org/

 

[FrDavid96]

Notably there are two parishes in the USA, that I know of, that have Saturday vigil Mass @ 2:30 PM that fulfills the Sunday obligation:

Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception
416 W. 12th Street
Kansas City, MO 64105
kcgolddome.org/page.php?ID=15

Guardian Angel Cathedral
302 Cathedral Way
Las Vegas, NV 89109
gaclv.org/

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4N.HTM

As I wrote before, I am unaware of any canon that permits one to fulfill the obligation at any time earlier than evening.

I do not doubt that the have such masses scheduled, but that doesn’t change the fact that the canon says “evening.”

 

[Rosebud77]

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4N.HTM

As I wrote before, I am unaware of any canon that permits one to fulfill the obligation at any time earlier than evening.

I do not doubt that the have such masses scheduled, but that doesn’t change the fact that the canon says “evening.”

Father, maybe one problem is that when priests have several parishes in their care, widespread, a relaxing of the rule is made needful?

The priest here has 4 parishes now . Two have mass on Saturday early evening, two Sunday morning. He has long drives on poor narrow roads.

 

[Gorgias]

the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception explicitly lists its 12:10 pm Saturday Mass as fulfilling the Sunday obligation (icjax.org/mass-schedule.html). Is it possible that they are going off a very literal reading of the creation story, which divides the day into morning and evening?

Doubtful. There’s nothing in canon law that allows for such an interpretation.

Looking at their website, it seems that they have many weddings there; in fact, they list 2pm, 4:30pm and 7pm as their scheduled wedding times.

It’s odd, still, that they have a noon Mass – also noted as a “weekday Mass” time on their site! – that’s billed as “satisfying the Sunday obligation.”

 

[1ke]

Doubtful. There’s nothing in canon law that allows for such an interpretation.
:

It is possible the ordinary of the place has made an accommodation through his own authority or permission of the Holy See.

Canon law is the general rule, but there are exceptions to many laws, through many paths. This is an ecclesial law, not a divine law, and therefore completely able to be dispensed or altered in local circumstances.

 

[FrDavid96]

It is possible the ordinary of the place has made an accommodation through his own authority or permission of the Holy See.

Canon law is the general rule, but there are exceptions to many laws, through many paths. This is an ecclesial law, not a divine law, and therefore completely able to be dispensed or altered in local circumstances.

I have to disagree. I do not see how a bishop can dispense from canon 1248 to expand on what the Church requires to satisfy the Sunday obligation.

The Church (as a whole) can do this because biblically speaking, the Lord’s Day begins at sunset—which is the biblical norm, and that’s also been the Christian practice from the very beginning.

The Church can regulate, purely as a matter of discipline, the actual time of day permitted for Masses. For example, under the 1917 Code, all Masses had to be in the morning. So, I would agree that (if such were still the law) the local bishop could dispense to allow an afternoon or evening Mass.

However, canon 1248 is not (in my estimation) something subject to the local bishop’s authority. He can dispense from the obligation—no doubt there. I do not see any way that he can dispense from canon 1248 to expand the meaning of the canon to say that a Mass earlier than evening meets the obligation. For example, we know that no bishop has the authority to say that one may fulfill the Sunday obligation by attending a Monday morning Mass—that’s beyond his competence, and I cannot imagine anyone doubting that. He can dispense only from the obligation itself.

 

[FrDavid96]

Doubtful. There’s nothing in canon law that allows for such an interpretation.

Looking at their website, it seems that they have many weddings there; in fact, they list 2pm, 4:30pm and 7pm as their scheduled wedding times.

It’s odd, still, that they have a noon Mass – also noted as a “weekday Mass” time on their site! – that’s billed as “satisfying the Sunday obligation.”

That’s why I trust what I read in the code of Canon Law. I don’t trust what I read in parish bulletins.

 

[Vico]

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4N.HTM

As I wrote before, I am unaware of any canon that permits one to fulfill the obligation at any time earlier than evening.

I do not doubt that the have such masses scheduled, but that doesn’t change the fact that the canon says “evening.”

Five canon law commentaries say: Noon, Noon, 4 pm, Noon, 2 pm

1. Great Britain and Ireland - evening of the previous day begins at midday (12 noon) on that day itself. GB&I Comm (1985) 702
2. Spain - ‘Misa del sábado por la tarde’. Código edición comentada (1985) 594.
3. North America, Dr. John Huels - Evening should be understood as anytime from 4:00 pm onward. CLSA New Comm (2001) 1445.
4. Spain - [A]s far as the [understanding of the previous] day is concerned [c. 1248 § 1] expands the schedule to twelve on the eve of the feast day.” Exegetical Comm III/2 (2004): 1901.
5. Italy - ab hora secunda post meridiem. Chiappetta II (2011): 522.

Opinion Dr. Edward Peters, JD, JCD, Ref. Sig. Ap.: “they constitute, I think, a large enough school of thought to allow for doubt of law considerations to enter this discussion in support of Catholics who hold any Mass attended beginning at 12:00 noon of the day previous as satisfying their next-day attendance obligation.”

canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2014/12/08/a-question-on-mass-start-times-that-warrants-attention/

 

[FrDavid96]

Five canon law commentaries say: Noon, Noon, 4 pm, Noon, 2 pm

1. Great Britain and Ireland - evening of the previous day begins at midday (12 noon) on that day itself. GB&I Comm (1985) 702
2. Spain - ‘Misa del sábado por la tarde’. Código edición comentada (1985) 594.
3. North America, Dr. John Huels - Evening should be understood as anytime from 4:00 pm onward. CLSA New Comm (2001) 1445.
4. Spain - [A]s far as the [understanding of the previous] day is concerned [c. 1248 § 1] expands the schedule to twelve on the eve of the feast day.” Exegetical Comm III/2 (2004): 1901.
5. Italy - ab hora secunda post meridiem. Chiappetta II (2011): 522.

Opinion Dr. Edward Peters, JD, JCD, Ref. Sig. Ap.: “they constitute, I think, a large enough school of thought to allow for doubt of law considerations to enter this discussion in support of Catholics who hold any Mass attended beginning at 12:00 noon of the day previous as satisfying their next-day attendance obligation.”

canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2014/12/08/a-question-on-mass-start-times-that-warrants-attention/

Commentaries do not over-rule canon law.

Since the canon says “evening” the canon means evening.

Now, someone can go through the code, take a pen and cross out the word “evening” and insert the words “after noon”; but unless that person also happens to be the pope, canon 1248 continues to say “evening.”

 

[Vico]

Commentaries do not over-rule canon law.

Since the canon says “evening” the canon means evening.

Now, someone can go through the code, take a pen and cross out the word “evening” and insert the words “after noon”; but unless that person also happens to be the pope, canon 1248 continues to say “evening.”

All the commentaries agree that it has the word evening, yet evening time is a different hour.

 

[1ke]

I have to disagree. I do not see how a bishop can dispense from canon 1248 to expand on what the Church requires to satisfy the Sunday obligation.

I don’t know if he can do it on his own authority or not, I’m not a canon law expert. But I am sure he can receive permission from the Holy See to do it. It’s an ecclesial law, not a divine law.