W
WanderAimlessly
Guest
It seems this happens every year:
PF
- Status
G
George_Waters
Guest
That is too bad this has happened once again. I hope the Saudi government does more to prevent any more deaths due to this tradition in the future. It is a shame when good, faithful people die practicing their religion. I will pray that all good people will be forgiven for their sins and allowed to enter Heaven.
T
tjmiller
Guest
Isn’t the death of hundreds of devout Muslims in a Hajj Stampede something of annual tradition?
With all that oil revenue, it seems like the Saudis could have some turnstiles installed…
With all that oil revenue, it seems like the Saudis could have some turnstiles installed…
M
MugenOne
Guest
The Saudis practice inshallah (God’s will) safety and precaution and prevention. I see that everyday here. You have people driving around like maniac with little kids jumping up and down inside their vehicles here. They have no regard for safety or prevention. I really feel sorry for them kids. If you accident my car (I’m quoting an India or Pakistani guy after he ramped his car into a co-worker’s vehicle), then it’s God’s will. If you die in an accident, it’s God’s will.
O
Ortho
Guest
There is a very elaborate set of civil engineering works in place at Mecca. They have spent billions on walkways the size of our eight lane highways.
The dilemma the Saudis face is that the Haj must be completed in one particular week of the year. All Muslims who can physically, and financially do the haj without neglecting other important obligations are required to do so. Both the total number of Muslims and the percent who are capable of making the Haj is growing each year. Therefore, the demand for the haj increases each year.
However, the prescribed area for the Haj has not changed. The Saudis could restrtict the numbers allowed to make the Haj, but they see that as too much of an imposition of their convenience on God’s instructions. So, they allow as many as they think they can handle, with more facilities being build every year, and more pilgrims every year.
Fires had been the worst danger, but that has been brought under control as modern tents have been erected under Saudi civil engineering supervision. The next most dangerous phenomenon is the stampede in which the huge numbers of people begin to move in undirected ways. This is where the civil engineering projects have been beneficial.
It certainly is not an ideal situation, but there are reasons for what happens, and it’s helpful to know what they are.
O
Ortho
Guest
The traffic is horrible, and I attribute that to the fact that the Saudi cops rarely rouse themselevs out of their cars for anything. In the US, when I am at a redlight, in the left lane, I still look to my right when the light turns green to see if some moron is making a left turn from the far right lane.
However, these same drivers are paragons of traffic safety when they cross the causeway to Bahrain. In Bahrain the cops are mercenaries from northern India and they take their job of traffic management very seriously.
Again, we have a social or cultural situation rather than a religious one.
D
DaveBj
Guest
I was going to make an ironic statement, but I just can’t bring myself to do it. I have worked and studied with Muslims and counted a number of them as my friends, and it pains me that every year dozens or hundreds are killed in an incident like this.
DaveBj
DaveBj
C
Cyber_Knight
Guest
Amen brother, amen…
C
Cyber_Knight
Guest
George Waters:
You don’t have to worry for their poor souls, GW, whenever they died during hajj ritual, they go to heaven.
A
AJV
Guest
Yeah, they’re too busy eating their shwarma (sorry, couldn’t resist the jab
).
An important point! Thanks for making it
M
MugenOne
Guest
This comes from the horse’s mouth: Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Sultan blamed the crush on pilgrims who insisted on carrying bulky baggage during the stoning ritual despite officials’ warnings.
But he defended the kingdom’s organisation of the haj, saying: “The state can’t stop God’s will, its impossible to think that any human can stop God’s will.”
At least 345 pilgrims killed in Saudi haj crush
But he defended the kingdom’s organisation of the haj, saying: “The state can’t stop God’s will, its impossible to think that any human can stop God’s will.”
At least 345 pilgrims killed in Saudi haj crush
O
Ortho
Guest
Cyber Knight:
After many years, I think my original inference was correct. The phrase has as much to do with God as our word “goodbye” has to do with God.
Inshaallah is so pervasive that it has become part of the normal English spoken by Americans in Saudi.
During the first six months in Saudi, I knew little Arabic, but heard Inshaallah all the time. Saudis used in when speaking both English and Arabic. From the context, I thought it meant, “I don’t know. Not my problem. Don’t blame me”Amen brother, amen…
After many years, I think my original inference was correct. The phrase has as much to do with God as our word “goodbye” has to do with God.
Inshaallah is so pervasive that it has become part of the normal English spoken by Americans in Saudi.
O
Ortho
Guest
I disagree about the shwarmas. It’s hard to eat when sleeping.Yeah, they’re too busy eating their shwarma (sorry, couldn’t resist the jab
An important point! Thanks for making it
M
MugenOne
Guest
If you say something like, “I’ll see you tomorrow” to Muslims in the Middle East, they consider that blasphemy. It’s blasphemous because you are telling them that you defy God’s will and you’ll live to see them tomorrow. See you tomorrow inshallah means God’s willing if I’m not dead, I will see you tomorrow. That’s why you hear them throwing in “inshallah” after you’ve said something like that. It’s not goodbye. Goodbye is masallama (go in the peace of God).
E
exoflare
Guest
I’d like everyone to excuse my presumption, as I am but a lowly kaffir, but would it really be considered such a disaster for the well-being of somebody’s soul if they decided to skip this ritual? If this is happening every year, you’d think people would start to wise up and avoid the whole thing altogether. Is it too much to ask that they put common sense over rigid legalism?
A
AJV
Guest
Going on Hajj is one of the Five Pillars of Islam which every good Muslim (who is able to ) is supposed to perform at least once in their lifetime.
O
Ortho
Guest
Common sense has little to do with any religion.
E
exoflare
Guest
So does that mean you have no problem with this?
O
Ortho
Guest
I have no problem with people making the Haj. That’s what their religion instructs. Nor do I have a problem with people doing many other things which carry an inherent risk.
Consider Europeans who used to make a pilgramage to the Holy Land. Many died. I don’t know the mortality rate, but would that have been a reasonable reason to skip the trip? Whose choice would it have been? As I recall, many Christians justify the Crusades so Christians could continue this perilous practice.
What would common sense have said about those pilgrimages?
E
exoflare
Guest
And I say the same thing about them… Christian religion says nothing about making a pilgrimage to any “holy land”. As far as the state of your soul is concerned, something like that is completely worthless in itself. I have know idea whether most of them were aware of the risks they faced back then, but if they were I would say the same thing I am today.
As for the Crusades, you’re painting it with a very broad brush. You act as if the sole reason they took place was the ability to make pilgrimages; there was a lot more involved.
- Status