SAVE OUR NATION: Another opportunity to sojourn into apologetics

[Kecharitomene]

I finally managed to muster the nerve to write a letter of humility in order to exhibit a more Christ like wittness in my discussion with JW at link I have been posting.

Here’s my letter:

PolyCarp:

Gentlemen:

I do believe that “Where is the Love” is onto something.

A couple of weeks ago, I was listening to my local AM Christian Radio program at about 9:15 PM. There was a program being broadcast that I had not heard prior called “Call to Action with Jay D. Cole”. The quality of the broadcast was horrendous and often sounded like there was some kind of problem with the device which the show was being replayed on. This is assuming that the show is recorded at an earlier time and then a recording of that original broadcast is aired in the 9:00 PM time slot.

Anyway, I did manage to hear the program’s host disclose his website address as www.saveournation.net, so I looked it up on the World Wide Web and sent him a message to inform him of the apparent technical difficulties that was affecting the ability for listeners to hear his program. He responded to my message with such gratitude that I was moved by his display of charity and humility. It was because of this spirit, that I thought I would share my prospective letter to the editor of my local newspaper addressing what I saw as a severe media bias in one of the articles that they ran. I don’t know if you have ever noticed, but occasionally one may find that some of the information that is presented by our various venues of mass media tend to lean towards a particular philosophy or ideal, and are not exactly completely neutral and/or objective.

I was hoping to receive some constructive criticism from your discussion board. I never intended for my request to result in a dialogue that has appeared to be anything but Christian in nature and charity.

When I read JW’s reply to my letter, it occurred to me that I needed to defend the Church and explain what she officially teaches. I received a phone call from Jay D. Cole at the onset of JW’s invective against the Church. Mr. Cole was following up to my email message and requested that I call him back at the number he provided. I had assumed that Jay W. Jr (JW) was the son of Jay D. Cole, and thus I thought it best that I wait until some of the callous comments receded before returning that call. I have yet to comply with Mr. Cole’s request as this dialogue has degraded to such a degree.

When I read each of your replies to me, it is starting to seem that you think that I am some kind of wise guy punk, who likes to argue and debate. I get the impression that somehow maybe you think that I attempt to beguile people into accepting things that they would otherwise reject outright. There could be nothing further from the truth.

I was reluctant to engage in this dialogue. Had it not been the work of the Holy Spirit encouraging me to defend the Church, I would have not remained a participant on the discussion board. In all honesty, I am lacking the wisdom, experience, and most likely the education that I am confident you both have received in your various endeavors and studies. If I am anything, I am just a average or below average Roman Catholic layman, who often exhibits more zeal than brains. I graduated high school in 1986, somewhere in the middle to lower middle part of my class. Immediately following, I attended college for year, failed out, and enlisted in the US Navy. I worked in and was trained on boiler and steam generating systems. I spent six years in the Navy, and at present I am member of the Disabled American Veterans (DAV). My Naval training provided me with skills that related to building maintenance, and thus has been my career field for my entire adult life. I received my two-year degree (Associate of Applied Science) in Industrial Technology from my local community college in 2003 at the age of 34.

-------------------CONTINUED BELOW-------------------------

 

[Kecharitomene]

--------------------------continued from previous post----------------------------
"PolyCarp post continued:

I do not claim to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but God has blessed me with endurance, and most recently, patients and hope. These utilities have proven necessary for me to endure responding to your accusations and comments. Nothing I have written is of my own idea, but merely what the Roman Catholic Church has taught and maintained from the start. I am only repeating the tenants of that faith which was handed on from the Apostles and is still alive in this age today.

I have not the capacity to adequately argue points of philosophy with anyone. Clearly, I cannot imagine that one would attribute such a quality to a person such as me. If any of my points seem to be significant, it is not because of anything I have done, but rather because of the force of historical weight bearing down on the matter. I guess its kind of cheating, because I am not a superior debater, but just that I contend a better argument.

I am not asking a trick question or trying to perform mental gymnastics when I ask you if you can prove that the Bible is the word of God. My intention is surely NOT to place anyone on the spot, to make them look foolish, or to berate their answer. My hope was that by asking that question, we would find a common point for a civil dialogue to begin.

Any Roman Catholic, who practices their faith and is earnest in their spiritual journey, will be able to provide at a rudimentary proof that the Bible is, beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt, the word of God and that its authorship was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Even a half-wit like me can provide the proof of the inspiration of the Sacred Scriptures. I would have thought that this was an essential point for all Christians because if you just accept on faith that the Bible is God’s word and have not one fact or objective means of supporting it, then how can one reasonably say that they are “sure” of anything that they believe.

I am hoping that we can mend our exchange and redirect our efforts towards a more civil discussion where we can, without resorting to false accusations and/or innuendo, address the matters of faith for which we may differ.

I hope to hear from you soon.
Pax Christi,

Humility isn’t one of my better attributes and so I feel like I am really sticking my neck out in writing composing such a post that exposes my deficiencies and opens me to ridicule.

Next, please see JW’s response to my exhibition of humility:

------------------------------CONTINUED ON NEXT POST----------------------

 

[Kecharitomene]

-----------CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST---------
JW:

Polycarp said,“In all honesty, I am lacking the wisdom, experience, and most likely the education that I am confident you both have received in your various endeavors and studies. If I am anything, I am just a average or below average Roman Catholic layman, who often exhibits more zeal than brains.”

Fair enough Polycarp. A humble attitude and a willing spirit will go a long way to increase understanding.

We’ll take that at face value and start again.

There are certainly some situations where a person can learn by having a tough hide and spouting the dogma of those they have been listening to. That method of learning can ussually provoke enough response to get one right into the mainstream of the debate, however it does not allow the one who practices it the opportunity to get all of the basics before entering arena of conflict in order to find out the truth. It can result in embarrassment when the conflict gets detailed enough to ace the user of this method.

Thus he ends up learning from taking a beating. Your tough hide can serve you well there.

In the future, unless you really believe some dogma that Catholicism has taught you, you might be better off just to say for example, (the Roman Catholic Church says this, how should I answer them scripturally?)Rather than taking the heat as if you were dead certain of it yourself.

You should remember that most of the people on this board are pretty battle hardened because the people we are called on to deal with are mostly wolves in sheeps clothing. We’ve been in the fight for a long time and when we see deviations from scripture, we recognize it pretty quickly and we’re ready to do combat.

You would not be well served however to think that just because people advocate faith in the scriptures that they are somehow lacking in evidence or proof of the scriptures. That would be a mistake.

The proofs for the accuracy and consistency of scripture are numerous to the point of overwhelming, but you still cannot force someone to believe it unless they are one of Gods chosen and elect from before the foundation of the world. Ephesian 1:4-5.
John 6:44. Those proofs are historical, spiritual, archaeological and literary. The modern day King James version of the Bible has more translational accuracy and repetitive copies by far than even the writings of Shakespeare. And no one questions the authenticity of Shakespeare.

It’s like presenting the evidence before a jury of two year olds in a court of law where the defense has just offered candy to all of the jurors. You just can’t get a conviction of the criminal under those circumstances regardless of how many years you spent documenting the facts and preparing the case. You can’t force someone to believe something that they don’t want to believe. But the truth is not determined by how many people believe it.

Likewise, if someone is not among Gods elect, He will never touch their heart and change their understanding. In fact, God will harden their heart just as He hardened Pharoahs heart in Romans chapter 9. No amount of persuasive argument or right living before them will be able to change them when that is the case.

Polycarp, you are not alone in your position here by any means. And Roman Catholics are not the only people who suffer from your predicament. There are people of almost every denomination who suffer from this same lack of knowledge and understanding of the Word of God. It’s getting almost as bad in your average Baptist, Methodist or Lutheran Churches as it is in Catholicism. People are not taught the Word anymore in most churches and at the same time they are distracted by other things of the world.

---------------------------CONTINUED ON NEXT POST-------------------------

 

[Kecharitomene]

----------------CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST-----
JW:

Polycarp said,“In all honesty, I am lacking the wisdom, experience, and most likely the education that I am confident you both have received in your various endeavors and studies. If I am anything, I am just a average or below average Roman Catholic layman, who often exhibits more zeal than brains.”

Fair enough Polycarp. A humble attitude and a willing spirit will go a long way to increase understanding.

We’ll take that at face value and start again.

There are certainly some situations where a person can learn by having a tough hide and spouting the dogma of those they have been listening to. That method of learning can ussually provoke enough response to get one right into the mainstream of the debate, however it does not allow the one who practices it the opportunity to get all of the basics before entering arena of conflict in order to find out the truth. It can result in embarrassment when the conflict gets detailed enough to ace the user of this method.

Thus he ends up learning from taking a beating. Your tough hide can serve you well there.

In the future, unless you really believe some dogma that Catholicism has taught you, you might be better off just to say for example, (the Roman Catholic Church says this, how should I answer them scripturally?)Rather than taking the heat as if you were dead certain of it yourself.

You should remember that most of the people on this board are pretty battle hardened because the people we are called on to deal with are mostly wolves in sheeps clothing. We’ve been in the fight for a long time and when we see deviations from scripture, we recognize it pretty quickly and we’re ready to do combat.

-------------CONTINUED ON NEXT POST-------------------------------------

 

[Kecharitomene]

-----------------------------CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST----------
JW:

You would not be well served however to think that just because people advocate faith in the scriptures that they are somehow lacking in evidence or proof of the scriptures. That would be a mistake.

The proofs for the accuracy and consistency of scripture are numerous to the point of overwhelming, but you still cannot force someone to believe it unless they are one of Gods chosen and elect from before the foundation of the world. Ephesian 1:4-5.
John 6:44. Those proofs are historical, spiritual, archaeological and literary. The modern day King James version of the Bible has more translational accuracy and repetitive copies by far than even the writings of Shakespeare. And no one questions the authenticity of Shakespeare.

It’s like presenting the evidence before a jury of two year olds in a court of law where the defense has just offered candy to all of the jurors. You just can’t get a conviction of the criminal under those circumstances regardless of how many years you spent documenting the facts and preparing the case. You can’t force someone to believe something that they don’t want to believe. But the truth is not determined by how many people believe it.

Likewise, if someone is not among Gods elect, He will never touch their heart and change their understanding. In fact, God will harden their heart just as He hardened Pharoahs heart in Romans chapter 9. No amount of persuasive argument or right living before them will be able to change them when that is the case.

Polycarp, you are not alone in your position here by any means. And Roman Catholics are not the only people who suffer from your predicament. There are people of almost every denomination who suffer from this same lack of knowledge and understanding of the Word of God. It’s getting almost as bad in your average Baptist, Methodist or Lutheran Churches as it is in Catholicism. People are not taught the Word anymore in most churches and at the same time they are distracted by other things of the world.

It seems as if JW accepts my humility as a sign that he is both spiritually and intellectually superior to me. I almost thought he was going to use the word “dummy” at one point in his post.

It is so difficult to resist posting a retort. What do ya do when you’ve bitten your tongue on so many ocassions, that its like hamburger?

I hope to hear from you soon.

Pax Christi,

Thom

 

[Will]

-----------------------------CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST----------

It seems as if JW accepts my humility as a sign that he is both spiritually and intellectually superior to me. I almost thought he was going to use the word “dummy” at one point in his post.

Pax Christi,

Thom

Well when I first read your last reply to JW. I also got the impression that you more or less gave up and admitted that you haven’t studied enough.

I realize that isn’t what you meant, but that is how it reads.
And I am sure JW knows that most people reading the thread will see it that way. And he took advantage of it.

If you want to get the thread back on track. Quote just one of his orginal issues and stick to discussing that. And maybe just mention that he took your last reply the wrong way. I bet if you called a staff apologist here and ask how you could word your response they would be more that willing to help.

Good luck.

 

[Kecharitomene]

Thank you Will for your suggestion and words of encouragment; I needed your injection of positive thinking. I haven’t yet contacted a CA Apologist, but I am considering it.

Here’s the text from my reply to the invective of both JW and JohnMinn:

PolyCarp:

Gentlemen:

Before I continue with our dialogue, I would like to get a sense of what ground we have in common such that we might be able to use that is our starting point. I hope you won’t mind, but I would really like to ask you all a few questions:

1. Where are you now in your spiritual journey?
2. How is your prayer life?
3. What is at the center (driving force) of your work in apologetics?

I hope you do not think I am becoming too personal or nosey, but a “from the heart” answer to these questions will flavor and direct our discussions.

I am trying to establish a precedent from which to build our dialogue on. I figure if all they want to do is bash the Church, then they will give little or no creedence to my questions. If such is the case, then I must accept it. I can’t do anything much about it, so acceptance is all that is left.

Ok, well I hope to hear from you all soon.

Pax Christi,

Thom

 

[Will]

No problem.

I would be willing to jump in myself but I am working (discussing) issues with someone else and it is keeping me quite busy.

I did hear the CA show yesterday and one question was how to and when to back out of an apologetic discussion if it wasn’t going anywhere. You might want to download it.

But on the other hand I remember hearing a show where an Apologist kept a discussion going on that he wanted to quit. Because he knew others we listening. Just I case he might plant a “seed of truth” in them.

God Bless and Keep up the Good Work.

 

[Kecharitomene]

Hi Will.

I am embarassed something terrible

I used the name “Jeff” as my radio personality when I called Catholic Answers Live yesterday and spoke with Patrick Madrid. We don’t have a local radio station that broadcasts Catholic Answers Live, so I ocassinally pick it up from the website.

The motivation for my call was specifically the engagement with the particular discussion we have been discussing.

If you remember, the Patrick’s advice at the close of the call was something to the effect that it takes experience and time to know when & how to exit from a discussion.

Hey…did ya like my joke about the Starbucks Coffee “Latte Sententiae”. Yeah, I guess it was kinda dumb, but what the heck, it was fun.

I originally posted that joke on Stephen Ray’s website at Defenders of the Catholic faith.com, or something like that, and Gary Hogue’s website catholic-outlook.com.

Thanks again Will for you encouragement. I will look to hear from you again.

Pax Christi,

Thom

 

[Kecharitomene]

:tiphat:

 

[Xenon-135]

Boy, is that site for Real?

its kinda dorky, ain’t it?

 

[Will]

Kecharitomene:

Hi Will.

The motivation for my call was specifically the engagement with the particular discussion we have been discussing.

Thom

I thougt it was quite serendipitous to hear q question releated to a thread I was following on the website.

But I think a lot of people have done the same thing the past few weeks.

I didn’t catch the whole joke as I was eating dinner and helping my toddler eat at the same time.

Have you come up with a reply to them yet? I will have to take at look at the website again later today.