Save the church! (kill the organs)

[pnewton]

Will you follow?

No and I generally do not follow the suggestions of anyone that is unfamiliar with my particular parish, but I am sure what is being done at your parish will work well for you. This is why music has zero to so with abortion. In the areas of prudence, pastors have a great leeway to be, well, pastoral. In the areas of mortal sin, there is no such possibility.

 

[mymamamary]

I realise the arguement here.

Pappa Benedict Himself has stated that: Gregorian Chant deserves the First of place

My problem with a lot of these contemporary Church hymns is that they are very watered down. . The Hymn has no apparent meaning, and it is annyoying to have to listen to it repeatadly every sunday!! .

I don’t mean to run these hymns through the mud. In fact, I love quite a few of them, as some are touching. However, MASS is not some concert, it is a Sacrifice. It is violent, beautiful, Sacred, and for a split second, all the earth stops and Holy MASS becomes THE center of the world. Im sure that the earths foundations shake. Holy MASS , if we knew what It really is, including me, We would have to install seat belts into the pews.

Honestly, how can someone NOT like something so beautiful as this inside the Liturgy…
gloria.tv/?media=120489

 

[TimothyH]

I realise the arguement here.

Pappa Benedict Himself has stated that: Gregorian Chant deserves the First of place

My problem with a lot of these contemporary Church hymns is that they are very watered down. . The Hymn has no apparent meaning, and it is annyoying to have to listen to it repeatadly every sunday!! .

I don’t mean to run these hymns through the mud. In fact, I love quite a few of them, as some are touching. However, MASS is not some concert, it is a Sacrifice. It is violent, beautiful, Sacred, and for a split second, all the earth stops and Holy MASS becomes THE center of the world. Im sure that the earths foundations shake. Holy MASS , if we knew what It really is, including me, We would have to install seat belts into the pews.

Honestly, how can someone NOT like something so beautiful as this inside the Liturgy…
gloria.tv/?media=120489

Mass is all that, and it is just the beginning. The word “Mass” means to send forth. That’s exactly what the deacon says at the end of mass, “The Mass has ended. Go forth.”

Having recieved the Eucharist, we are then sent forth to be other Christs during the other 167 hours of the week.

Mass is where heaven and earth meet, and it is the source and summit of our faith, but our salvation is worked out in fear and trembling, in a life of faithfulness to God in the suffering, trials and temptations of the real world. Our salvation is won or lost in everyday life of traffic and business and family and temptation and trying to get up on time.

We can go on and on about chant and beauty and what Mass is, but there is a life to live after Mass is over, and Mass is there to help us through that. People seem to forget that Mass is at the beginning of the week for a reason.

-Tim-

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

I would say the evidence is that many priests and bishops disagree with your opinion, thus the existence of OCP.

The diocese where OCP is published is known to be rather … ahem … lenient.

 

[pnewton]

Honestly, how can someone NOT like something so beautiful as this inside the Liturgy.

MASS is not some concert

Irony can be pretty ironic.

 

[pnewton]

The diocese where OCP is published is known to be rather … ahem … lenient.

Ah, but they are also used across the nation. There are many dioceses where their materials are used, maybe even most.

 

[mymamamary]

Mass is all that, and it is just the beginning. The word “Mass” means to send forth. That’s exactly what the deacon says at the end of mass, “The Mass has ended. Go forth.”

Having recieved the Eucharist, we are then sent forth to be other Christs during the other 167 hours of the week.

Mass is where heaven and earth meet, and it is the source and summit of our faith, but our salvation is worked out in fear and trembling, in a life of faithfulness to God in the suffering, trials and temptations of the real world. Our salvation is won or lost in everyday life of traffic and business and family and temptation and trying to get up on time.

We can go on and on about chant and beauty and what Mass is, but there is a life to live after Mass is over, and Mass is there to help us through that. People seem to forget that Mass is at the beginning of the week for a reason.

True Mr. Hollingworth, True,

We then have another 6 days of putting up with the “stink” of the world.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

True Mr. Hollingworth, True,

We then have another 6 days of putting up with the “stink” of the world.

Christians don’t “Put up” with the world. The disciples were locked in the upper room out of fear, and then the Holy Spirit came at Pentacost and they spoke out boldly, not even afraid to die. Confirmation is our personal participation in Pentacost. We don’t put up with the world. We are to sanctify it, change it, Chistianize it and claim for Christ the little portion of it that we have been given.

The world is not “stink”. God created the world good. Other people we meet are not stink, no matter how badly they sin.

Christ died so that everyone could be saved. God took on flesh, entered creation, and allowed himself to be nailed to a tree so that every human could be saved. Every act, every word, every breath of Jesus Christ was ordered to the salvation of every single human being. God became man and died for each of us, and that gives the worst drug addicted prostitute infinite value. That gives every human being a right to a dignified existence.

We can argue about organs and guitars if we want, but If we go to the most beautiful and reverent Mass celebrated by the most pure and holy priest and walk out of the Mass and don’t love our neighbor during the other 167 hours of the week then Christ died for nothing and we are hypocrites.

Organ music, or any other music is not what is going to save or destroy the Church. It’s a lack of love during the other 167 hours of the week that is going to destroy the Church, because the world will look at us as hypocrites who don’t practice what they preach. God will look at us hypocrites, and that never worked out good in the Bible.

-Tim-

 

[mymamamary]

Christians don’t “Put up” with the world. The disciples were locked in the upper room out of fear, and then the Holy Spirit came at Pentacost and they spoke out boldly, not even afraid to die. Confirmation is our personal participation in Pentacost. We don’t put up with the world. We are to sanctify it, change it, Chistianize it and claim for Christ the little portion of it that we have been given.

The world is not “stink”. God created the world good. Other people we meet are not stink, no matter how badly they sin.

Christ died so that everyone could be saved. God took on flesh, entered creation, and allowed himself to be nailed to a tree so that every human could be saved. Every act, every word, every breath of Jesus Christ was ordered to the salvation of every single human being. God became man and died for each of us, and that gives the worst drug addicted prostitute infinite value. That gives every human being a right to a dignified existence.

We can argue about organs and guitars if we want, **but If we go to the most beautiful and reverent Mass celebrated by the most pure and holy priest and walk out of the Mass and don’t love our neighbor during the other 167 hours of the week then Christ died for nothing and we are hypocrites. **Organ music, or any other music is not what is going to save or destroy the Church. It’s a lack of love during the other 167 hours of the week that is going to destroy the Church, because the world will look at us as hypocrites who don’t practice what they preach. God will look at us hypocrites, and that never worked out good in the Bible.

-Tim-

True. Unfortunately true.

 

[superamazingman]

I would say the evidence is that many priests and bishops disagree with your opinion, thus the existence of OCP.

I would also say that many priests and bishops agree with his opinion, thus the widespread disdain for OCP.

Some lenient priests and bishop(s?) liking it doesn’t mean the music is ok to sing, or doctrinaly sound, or even acceptable to sing (ala “lean on me”). Yes, it’s in there.

 

[pnewton]

Some lenient priests and bishop(s?) liking it doesn’t mean the music is ok to sing, or doctrinaly sound, or even acceptable to sing.

Absolutely! Acceptability is a matter of the local bishop, who is in charge of the liturgy, or whoever he allows to make such decisions. All other opinions without authority are just opinions, of which there is no lack.

 

[superamazingman]

Absolutely! Acceptability is a matter of the local bishop, who is in charge of the liturgy, or whoever he allows to make such decisions. All other opinions without authority are just opinions, of which there is no lack.

Uhh… not so much. The main authority is in the hands of the Vatican, specifically the CDW. The bishop can do some things where he is specifically given authority by the CDW, for example, to choose kneeling vs standing after the agnus dei, but the bishop does not have general authority to do whatever he wants. So to use your own words, even some of his opinions are just opinions.

 

[austenbosten]

Bwahahaha! At first I thought this was a Michael Voris rant.

Nooo don’t touch the organ…burn those hippie instruments (piano, drums, guitars, tamborines) but don’t touch that pipe organ!

 

[pnewton]

Uhh… not so much. The main authority is in the hands of the Vatican, specifically the CDW…

Uh, yes so much so, at least in regards to the actual topic at hand. It is called subsidiarity. It is why the GIRM does not specify mandatory musical selections. No, the authority is not absolute, but then we are not discussing everything here, just music.

"Canon 838.1 — The supervision of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church which resides in the Apostolic See and, in accord with the law, the diocesan bishop.

“Canon 839.2 — Local ordinaries are to see to it that the prayers and other pious and sacred exercises of the Christian people are fully in harmony with the norms of the Church.”

Note role of lay opinion mentioned here, namely, none.

Can the bishop use OCP? Absolutely. Can he use oreo cookies for the Eucharist? Nope!

 

[YoungTradCath]

Bwahahaha! At first I thought this was a Michael Voris rant.

Nooo don’t touch the organ…burn those hippie instruments (piano, drums, guitars, tamborines) but don’t touch that pipe organ!

=o I think Mr. Voris would be one of the last people to want the banning of organs.

 

[ThePaladin]

I just find it highly ironic that OCP gets the bad rap for liturgical abuse when the two most hated names in Catholic contemporary music (hated by traditionalists, that is) are signed nearly exclusively to GIA.

Can someone explain to me why OCP specifically gets all the disdain?

Thanks!

 

[Cat]

Christians don’t “Put up” with the world. The disciples were locked in the upper room out of fear, and then the Holy Spirit came at Pentacost and they spoke out boldly, not even afraid to die. Confirmation is our personal participation in Pentacost. We don’t put up with the world. We are to sanctify it, change it, Chistianize it and claim for Christ the little portion of it that we have been given.

The world is not “stink”. God created the world good. Other people we meet are not stink, no matter how badly they sin.

Christ died so that everyone could be saved. God took on flesh, entered creation, and allowed himself to be nailed to a tree so that every human could be saved. Every act, every word, every breath of Jesus Christ was ordered to the salvation of every single human being. God became man and died for each of us, and that gives the worst drug addicted prostitute infinite value. That gives every human being a right to a dignified existence.

We can argue about organs and guitars if we want, but If we go to the most beautiful and reverent Mass celebrated by the most pure and holy priest and walk out of the Mass and don’t love our neighbor during the other 167 hours of the week then Christ died for nothing and we are hypocrites.

Organ music, or any other music is not what is going to save or destroy the Church. It’s a lack of love during the other 167 hours of the week that is going to destroy the Church, because the world will look at us as hypocrites who don’t practice what they preach. God will look at us hypocrites, and that never worked out good in the Bible.

-Tim-

What a wonderful post!! Thank you for these edifying words!

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Thou shalt not kill.

God didn’t make exceptions for tambourines and drums, which are mentioned in the Bible.

“Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe!” Psalm 150:4

While there are some translations that show “organ” for “pipe” I doubt they had those big windy things in the Second Temple. But I would be glad to be corrected.

All this makes you wonder if the solemnity of our worship (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican) is perhaps more solemn than King David intended.

I’m with you… kill the guitars, tambourines and drums… leave the organs alone.

 

[superamazingman]

I just find it highly ironic that OCP gets the bad rap for liturgical abuse when the two most hated names in Catholic contemporary music (hated by traditionalists, that is) are signed nearly exclusively to GIA.

Can someone explain to me why OCP specifically gets all the disdain?

Thanks!

GIA has a lot of bad stuff, but OCP has some of the worst.

 

[Elizium23]

Uh, yes so much so, at least in regards to the actual topic at hand. It is called subsidiarity. It is why the GIRM does not specify mandatory musical selections. No, the authority is not absolute, but then we are not discussing everything here, just music.

Can the bishop use OCP? Absolutely. Can he use oreo cookies for the Eucharist? Nope!

A bishop is entitled to use his prudential judgement. However, there remains the question of whether he is acting in concert with the mind of the Church. To that end, I re-read Sacrosanctum Concilium, because I was exhorted to do so for the Year of Faith, and questions are coming up in my parish as we transition to chant, why we would want to do that. The answer is simple. It is more than my opinion as a lay person. It is the mind of the Church. The Church prefers Gregorian chant and she prefers proper antiphons to be sung (along with the other parts of the Mass.) The Church also prefers that the music selected reflect right doctrine and be drawn chiefly from Scriptural and liturgical sources. The Church prefers that the pipe organ be afforded pride of place, and that other instruments be well-suited to sacred liturgy or not introduced at all.

The music and instruments most Catholics have endured for 40+ years meet none of these criteria. Oh, you can argue that hymns are perfectly valid forms of musical expression for the liturgy (they are - especially sacred polyphony - but have a lower priority than antiphons), and you can argue that guitars are like lutes and tambourines are in the Bible, but let’s look at our prime examples. The Holy Father arranges his Masses a certain way. Some orthodox bishops and priests like him use Latin, pipe organ, Gregorian chant, and proper antiphons.

Who will we choose to follow? I choose the mind of the Church, my own bishop, and our own Pope. You can choose Rev. Joe Heterodox from Portland, OR. But that’s not the direction we are now headed. Thanks be to God.