Saved by faith alone? Man's doctrine vs. God's Doctrine

[erikd]

Man’s Doctrine

“Therefore, it is clear and certain that this **faith alone **justifies us”
Luther, Martin. “The Smalcald Articles,” in Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions. (Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 2005, 289, Part two, Article 1.

Wherefore that we are justified **by faith only **is a most wholesome doctrine
Thirty-nine Articles of Religion (1571)

We understand that what we here affirm is in agreement with what the Reformation traditions have meant by justification by faith alone (sola fide).
The Gift of Salvation (1997)

only by God’s grace **through faith alone **are we saved
Calvary Chapel Chino Hills
calvarycch.org/beliefs.php

**Simply believe **in Jesus and He guarantees you will never die spiritually
Grace Evangelical Society
faithalone.org/gospel.html

“Faith + 0 = Salvation”
Dr. J. Vernon McGee

God’s Doctrine

RSV
24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
NRSV
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Douay
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
NAB
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
KJV
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
WEB
24 You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith.
ESV
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
NASB
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
NIV
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
YOUNG
24 Ye see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous, and not out of faith only;
Vulgate
24 videtis quoniam ex operibus iustificatur homo et non ex fide tantum
ASV
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Darby
24Ye see that a man is justified on the principle of works, and not on the principle of faith only.

I’ll stay with God’s doctrines.

 

[ejb21]

This is an old but interesting topic that resurfaces from time to time, in one form or another.

In a way, it’s an argument about words and the definitions of those words used by the different camps. And then there’s this : Are we saved by faith?, are we saved by works?, are we saved by faith and works? are we saved by faith working through love?, are we saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross?

It is an interesting topic.

 

[Porkchop2]

This is really great…I live right around the corner from a Calvary Chapel, and their bookstore is LOADED with anti_Catholic material…very sad, but their goal is to “convert” Catholics…this was really helpful to me in defending my faith. i knew where it was in the Bible, but not Martin Luther’s actual words.

 

[erikd]

This is an old but interesting topic that resurfaces from time to time, in one form or another.

In a way, it’s an argument about words and the definitions of those words used by the different camps. And then there’s this : Are we saved by faith?, are we saved by works?

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Matthew 12:37

,

are we saved by faith and works? are we saved by faith working through love?, are we saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross?

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:22

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Galatians 5:6

27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26:27-28

Don’t forget, however, that this is not all that saves. Baptism also saves.

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

Salvation is a multi-step process, that involves following God’s commands as well as converting your heart to belong to God and not to yourself.

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, " ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ "
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Matthew 19:16-21

 

[erikd]

This is really great…I live right around the corner from a Calvary Chapel, and their bookstore is LOADED with anti_Catholic material…very sad, but their goal is to “convert” Catholics…this was really helpful to me in defending my faith. i knew where it was in the Bible, but not Martin Luther’s actual words.

Hi Porkchop2, I have several friends that attend services at the Calvary Chapel, and I am aware of their anti-Catholic stance, though none of them will come out and tell you that they are anti-Catholic. If you ever run into an argument you can’t answer, I’ve found the Catholic.com faith tracts to be very helpful. Also you can contact me either through this forum or through a pm if you need additional help and / or resources. I hope to convert some of my friends in the future to come back home to the Catholic Church, the Church that Jesus Christ Himself built (Matthew 16:17-19) on the foundation of St. Peter and the Apostles. However, I must remember that all I can do is plant seeds, and let the Holy Spirit perform the actual conversions.

 

[adriancombe]

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Matthew 12:37

,

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:22

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Galatians 5:6

27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26:27-28

Don’t forget, however, that this is not all that saves. Baptism also saves.

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

Salvation is a multi-step process, that involves following God’s commands as well as converting your heart to belong to God and not to yourself.

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, " ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ "
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Matthew 19:16-21

And of course, the one rarely mentioned:

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So, if faith is a work, and that is the definition Jesus Himself uses, ‘faith without works’ is meaningless anyway. At most it could mean ‘faith without other works’.

 

[geometer]

You must do works by your faith. Great faith, great works, even miracles by the love God.

Faith works…, a miracle of Gods grace saves you.

Love god, confess everything you know about love to God, and ask God what you will…

 

[SB81848889]

The one problem with this interpretation is that James is speaking to believers about christian works and how we are justified to each other. He is speaking from a mans perspective on works and is not talking at all about salvation.

Paul on the other hand is directly speaking about salvation and how a lost sinner is justified before God.

Its all the difference in the world, and if you look at the context of these two verses you will see very clearly that difference.

Are you sure you are following Gods doctrine or are you following Rome’s.

Romans 3

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[SB81848889]

This is really great…I live right around the corner from a Calvary Chapel, and their bookstore is LOADED with anti_Catholic material…very sad, but their goal is to “convert” Catholics…this was really helpful to me in defending my faith. i knew where it was in the Bible, but not Martin Luther’s actual words.

You are half correct, I can only speak for myself, and I do not believe every thing Calvary Chapel teaches, they are just an off-shoot of the larger protestant denominations for the most part.

I am not anti-catholic in anyway. I am anti-Rome. What I mean is I feel nothing but compassion and respect for most individual Catholics, I do however believe that the Papacy and the Roman church’s are anti-Christ. and that they have been deceiving honest people since just after the time of the apostles. This can clearly be seen in the prophecy of the scriptures.

So it may seem I am catholic bashing, but I would not agree with that label at all.

Religion has several motives that are anti-Christ, and at the top of the list is the desire to work your way to heaven and that you can loose your salvation. That is not God’s will. The bible has many very clear passages about salvation without works, and the just will live by faith.

 

[erikd]

The one problem with this interpretation is that James is speaking to believers about christian works and how we are justified to each other. He is speaking from a mans perspective on works and is not talking at all about salvation.

Hi SB, nice to hear from you again. Let me show you how I interpret the comments, in light of your interpretation:

1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
James 1:1

The salutation here shows who this is addressed to, the “twelve tribes” which would indicate at the very least a Judeo-Christian audience. The works that are spoken of are very much like the works that our Lord asked us to follow. For instance:

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
James 2:8

This was Jesus’ new commandment mentioned in Mark 12:31. When this commandment was in discussion with the scribe, Jesus answers him in verse 34 “You are not far from the reign of God.” This would certainly speak of salvation, and it’s a direct quote from Jesus used by James. It seems that St. James was indeed referring to salvation, as was Jesus. Let’s look at another example.

“Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law” from James 2:11 is a direct result of the words of St. Paul who said in Galatians 2:18 "For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.” St. Paul was of course making the point that Baptism destroys your sins and makes you a new man (Ephesians 4:24, Colossians 3:10) while the reversal of this destruction, through the commitment of sins, makes you a transgressor. This again would seem to be referring to salvation, as Baptism has been shown to be salvific (John 3:3).

Paul on the other hand is directly speaking about salvation and how a lost sinner is justified before God.

Its all the difference in the world, and if you look at the context of these two verses you will see very clearly that difference.

Are you sure you are following Gods doctrine or are you following Rome’s.

Romans 3

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

I believe that St. Paul shows us in verse 30 that he is referring to the heresy which claimed that circumcision was necessary for one’s salvation, even with the belief in Jesus Christ. This heresy, as you know, was addressed in Acts 15 and shown to be a heresy. This, of course, would have been a perfect time for the Apostles to explain, as you have, that the works that St. Paul would refer to in all of his letters following the Council of Jerusalem, would refer to all works, not just the ones addressed at the council. But that did not happen. It seems, if you’re correct, that the Apostles missed an opportunity to clarify something that would not be seen for another 1400 years, until Luther. Or perhaps, they never meant to say that no works are necessary, and therefore making the letter to the Romans and the epistle of James in agreement with one another. Let’s take a look at St. Paul’s words to the Galatians:

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Galatians 5:1-5

 

[erikd]

You are half correct, I can only speak for myself, and I do not believe every thing Calvary Chapel teaches, they are just an off-shoot of the larger protestant denominations for the most part.

I am not anti-catholic in anyway. I am anti-Rome. What I mean is I feel nothing but compassion and respect for most individual Catholics, I do however believe that the Papacy and the Roman church’s are anti-Christ. and that they have been deceiving honest people since just after the time of the apostles. This can clearly be seen in the prophecy of the scriptures.

So it may seem I am catholic bashing, but I would not agree with that label at all.

SB: Since you subscribe to the word Catholic, I can only assume that you subscribe to this explanation of the Church as it means “universal.” My question for you is if you could point me to any time in history, where the “Catholic” or “universal” church was not led by Rome or the Papacy? By the way, I’m not looking for the exceptions like when Rome was under attack and the Pope, in order to save the Church and his own life, had to temporarily relocate. I’m looking for an explanation of when and where the Church was ran like a bunch of independent non-denominational churches, ran by non-ordained ministers, not overseen by the Papacy or a magisterium. Thanks in advance for your answer.

Religion has several motives that are anti-Christ, and at the top of the list is the desire to work your way to heaven and that you can loose your salvation. That is not God’s will. The bible has many very clear passages about salvation without works, and the just will live by faith.

SB, can you show me from official Catholic teaching where the Catholic Church teaches a works only salvation? Also can you point me to an official Catholic Church teaching that claims that God’s will is for some to lose their salvation? If you can show me those teachings I will leave the Church immediately.

 

[SB81848889]

1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
James 1:1

The salutation here shows who this is addressed to, the “twelve tribes” which would indicate at the very least a Judeo-Christian audience. The works that are spoken of are very much like the works that our Lord asked us to follow. For instance:

They are the works of obedience. You are trying to read into the context of this epistle by deflecting to another part of scripture with an entirely different context and audience. instead of reading out of the message what the author is saying. Also regardless that these christians were Jew or gentile, they were still christians, at least professing christians.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
James 2:8

This was Jesus’ new commandment mentioned in Mark 12:31. When this commandment was in discussion with the scribe, Jesus answers him in verse 34 “You are not far from the reign of God.” This would certainly speak of salvation, and it’s a direct quote from Jesus used by James. It seems that St. James was indeed referring to salvation, as was Jesus. Let’s look at another example.

Jesus did not give us any new commandments, he simply directed the scribes to the meaning of them. all 10 commandments are summed up in these 2. The Jews as you know loved to follow the letter of the law but not the spirit of it.

You are also reading into the text something that James is simply not discussing in the context. You are again deflecting to Marks Gospel where there were no Christians yet, just unbelieving Jews. So I cannot accept your assumption that James is speaking of salvation just because many years earlier Jesus hinted about salvation to the scribes, when the context is entirely different.

We need to stay within the context of James’ epistle. James was warning confessing Christians who were either un-repentant of did not truly believe in Christ and not genuine Christians at all that good works were the fruit of salvation and since many of them were not showing this fruit they may be deceiving themselves.

“Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law” from James 2:11 is a direct result of the words of St. Paul who said in Galatians 2:18 "For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.” St. Paul was of course making the point that Baptism destroys your sins and makes you a new man (Ephesians 4:24, Colossians 3:10) while the reversal of this destruction, through the commitment of sins, makes you a transgressor. This again would seem to be referring to salvation, as Baptism has been shown to be salvific (John 3:3).

I believe that St. Paul shows us in verse 30 that he is referring to the heresy which claimed that circumcision was necessary for one’s salvation, even with the belief in Jesus Christ. This heresy, as you know, was addressed in Acts 15 and shown to be a heresy. This, of course, would have been a perfect time for the Apostles to explain, as you have, that the works that St. Paul would refer to in all of his letters following the Council of Jerusalem, would refer to all works, not just the ones addressed at the council. But that did not happen. It seems, if you’re correct, that the Apostles missed an opportunity to clarify something that would not be seen for another 1400 years, until Luther. Or perhaps, they never meant to say that no works are necessary, and therefore making the letter to the Romans and the epistle of James in agreement with one another. Let’s take a look at St. Paul’s words to the Galatians:

Breaking any law makes you a transgressor, there is no disagreement there, however all of Gods law is summed up by Christs 2 great commandments which are also the 10 commandments. So if you keep all of the law you still are not justified, as Paul states. I dont know what works you think Paul is referring to that will be required for salvation, but there are only 2 works that can be done by a christian period. They are Loving God with all your being and Loving man as yourself. James is clearly speaking of the entire law just as Paul does many times. Paul may be speaking about circumcision in this passage, but its just a part of loving God.

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Galatians 5:1-5

Its interesting that Rome teaches just what Paul is warning about. In order for a Catholic to be saved he must be justified by the law by keeping the commandments. So by your own system according to the scriptures you have fallen from Grace.

I do not attempt to be justified by any law. I cannot live it. I am justified by faith in Christ alone. Thats how I know we are saved by faith alone.

 

[thistle]

This is really great…I live right around the corner from a Calvary Chapel, and their bookstore is LOADED with anti_Catholic material…very sad, but their goal is to “convert” Catholics…this was really helpful to me in defending my faith. i knew where it was in the Bible, but not Martin Luther’s actual words.

On the other hand Luther declared in writing that Mary is the Mother of God, that she was immaculately conceived, and that she was a perpetual virgin. These are issues which anti-Catholics disagree with but don’t realise the founders of Protestantism did believe this.
If you need his writings showing this let me know.
By the way Calvin and Zwingili also believed this.

 

[erikd]

They are the works of obedience. You are trying to read into the context of this epistle by deflecting to another part of scripture with an entirely different context and audience. instead of reading out of the message what the author is saying. Also regardless that these christians were Jew or gentile, they were still christians, at least professing christians.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Christian works are works of obedience as well as our Lord told us in Matt; 19;17: “Keep the commandments” as a condition of the attainment of eternal life. This, of course, is perfectly reasonable when considering James 2:17: “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” Keeping the commandments is keeping your faith.

Jesus did not give us any new commandments, he simply directed the scribes to the meaning of them. all 10 commandments are summed up in these 2. The Jews as you know loved to follow the letter of the law but not the spirit of it.

By saying it is a new commandment, I am merely quoting our Lord: “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” John 13:34.

You are also reading into the text something that James is simply not discussing in the context. You are again deflecting to Marks Gospel where there were no Christians yet, just unbelieving Jews. So I cannot accept your assumption that James is speaking of salvation just because many years earlier Jesus hinted about salvation to the scribes, when the context is entirely different.

Your explanation of this is one you’ll have to explain, since the context seems exactly the same. Let me show you:

“And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Mark 12:31

If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well
James 2:8

The verse is even quoted as though referring back to Jesus’ words. Please explain how the two are different.

We need to stay within the context of James’ epistle. James was warning confessing Christians who were either un-repentant of did not truly believe in Christ and not genuine Christians at all that good works were the fruit of salvation and since many of them were not showing this fruit they may be deceiving themselves.

Or, perhaps the more likely explanation, is that James was merely explaining to us that if we profess Christ with our lips and not our heart (which of course translates into action or works) than that faith is pointless.

Breaking any law makes you a transgressor, there is no disagreement there, however all of Gods law is summed up by Christs 2 great commandments which are also the 10 commandments. So if you keep all of the law you still are not justified, as Paul states. I dont know what works you think Paul is referring to that will be required for salvation, but there are only 2 works that can be done by a christian period. They are Loving God with all your being and Loving man as yourself. James is clearly speaking of the entire law just as Paul does many times. Paul may be speaking about circumcision in this passage, but its just a part of loving God.

It is interesting that you correctly identify Jesus’ commandments with the ten commandments, which of course are filled with good works, while denying the good works.

Its interesting that Rome teaches just what Paul is warning about. In order for a Catholic to be saved he must be justified by the law by keeping the commandments. So by your own system according to the scriptures you have fallen from Grace.

I do not attempt to be justified by any law. I cannot live it. I am justified by faith in Christ alone. Thats how I know we are saved by faith alone.

It is interesting to see that I gave you the opportunity to sway people by issuing a challenge to you which went unanswered. In post #11 I challenged you to back up your words of the Catholic Church teaching a works only salvation as well as the Catholic Church teaching that God does not want all of us to be saved. This is what you suggested in post #9. If you really want to change hearts and minds, answer these two questions with teachings from the magisterium and or the Catechism and you’ll create many many followers (myself included).

 

[Kirk_O]

This may be off subject, but the other day I was praying with my Brothers (that are Protestant). One thing that they continue to say is that they are seeking Gods face. . What they are trying to do is learn it from the Bible. Search deep into scripture and have the Holy Spirit teach them. But I finally spoke up and said the only way you can see His face is to do works (I didn’t use that term because they wouldn’t have listened any further). I presented to them Matthew 25: 31-46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Now to me, how could this not be works? You know what they never did respond. I can’t wait till this week so I can bring it up again.

God Bless
Kirk

 

[Porkchop2]

Ok Napoleon.

The Pope is not the anti-Christ, and I cannot accept you saying that about MY Pope. God alone is the judge. I may not be well-versed, but I do know what love and obedience is in regards to life.

Obedience is key. There would never be any Protestants if they practiced obedience. Yes, there have been mistakes, but after 2000 years of Catholicism (make sure you study complete Church history, not Chuck Smith’s version), the Church (Catholic) is still here, and like Scripture says, the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

We must imitate Christ…obedience and love. Jesus gave the keys to his Church to Peter. The Church just did not flounder and go underground until Martin Luther. Remember, throughout history, Christians were receiving the Eucharist and the other Sacraments. Only heretics weren’t.

Thank God we have 2000 years of teachings and Scripture. And a leader of our Church, rather than a lot of chiefs with different doctrines and flavors.

Please don’t call my…OUR Pope the anti-Christ. Read Church history without bias, and your eyes will be opened. There are tons of Scripture references that go along the history and Councils, so you won’t be misdirected.

I have not met a Protestant yet, in person, who has actually read Church history from Catholic and true sources. Their information is usually begotten from biased sources instead of the Truth.

Thank you to all the others for your support. As time goes on (we have lived here 11 years), Calvary has gone through a lot of different avenues. My son went to their Harvest festival, and when someone asked him to come to church, he already said he goes to church. Then they asked, which one? He mentioned our Catholic church, and then the blasting of our Faith came on my poor son’s shoulders. However, he is very, very well catechised and knows his Scriptures, so lovingly he counter replied. But, he got a good dose of CC. We have yet to meet someone who goes there that is unbiased and loving. Which is why I brought it up. I told my son we are here to LOVE, and by receiving the Sacraments worthily, we have the Grace to go forward.

My heart goes out to all the former Catholics at the end of times. Funny how the former Catholics bash the Church when they leave, but the former Protestants that join our Church (mine in particular…we have a huge group of converts), are so thankful to be in the Truth. There is so much anger at leaving the Church, and so much joy at being received into the Catholic church.

Than you to everyone who has responded. I have learned a lot, and realized, again, that the last acceptable prejudice is Catholic bashing.

The Pope is not the anti-Christ.

 

[fdesales]

I am not anti-catholic in anyway. I am anti-Rome. What I mean is I feel nothing but compassion and respect for most individual Catholics, I do however believe that the Papacy and the Roman church’s are anti-Christ. and that they have been deceiving honest people since just after the time of the apostles. This can clearly be seen in the prophecy of the scriptures.

Three questions on this…

1. Where does history speak about the transitional point where “Rome took over”, AGAINST the will of the rest of the Church? Where does history speak about any rebellion or people speaking up against this “obvious” usurping of power that the Papacy supposedly did not have??? All the writings that we have from this period suggest that it was NATURAL that the faith must agree with the faith held at Rome (Paul suggests this in his letter to the Romans). In other words, what sort of Christians WERE these people to “allow” themselves to come under Roman hegemony? Remember, authority requires ACCEPTANCE, as well. One party claiming to have authoritative rights means nothing if no one ACCEPTS the claim (without superior weaponry).
2. Which prophesies clearly speak about the Roman Papacy? Recall that prophesies are purposely vague, and can be twisted or interpreted to mean practically anything. IF prophesies were applicable to ONLY one possibility, wouldn’t you think we find something for the JEWS to allow them to accept Jesus as the Christ??? In other words, anti-Romans can twist the Scriptures to support preconceived notions. There is no “Roman Papacy” prophesies that are universally accepted. The unbiased will not be convinced by them.
3. Deception appears to follow the original, when one researches history. What does this say for Protestantism?

Regards

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Hello!

With regards to the topic, you can talk all day long about works in general, but who can explain to me how a fruitful Catholic could loose his salvation then perform good works to get it back?

Let me explain. Is it not true that if a Catholic, who is in a state of grace, does not attend an obligatory mass without good reason, he is no longer considered being in a state of grace? And if that happens, he must work through his priest and the subsequent penance in order to return to a state of grace, correct? How do you reconcile that scenario with what Jesus taught concerning the branches and the Vine? If a branch bears fruit (which I assume one must if he is in a state of grace) how could he be cut off? Jesus said the branches that do not bear fruit will be cut off, but the branches that do bear fruit will be pruned so they might bear more fruit. And if the works that are required of a Catholic who is not in a state of grace to return to grace are acceptable by God, how do you make sense of Jesus’ teaching that one cannot bear fruit (good works) unless he abide in the Vine? (Reference John 15)

 

[erikd]

Hello!

With regards to the topic, you can talk all day long about works in general, but who can explain to me how a fruitful Catholic could loose his salvation then perform good works to get it back?

Brian:

The Catholic Church does not teach a works only salvation. It you believe it does, I challenge you to show me from a Church teaching, Papal encyclical, Catechism, etc. The Catholic Church teaches, just as does the Holy Scripture, that salvation is through faith, which includes works. Faith without works is dead. Salvation, however, can be lost. This is a little off topic but take a look at the following verses:

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:22-23

If one cannot lose their salvation, St. Paul would certainly not speak of “grafting again” as it would not be necessary. In fact, St. Paul clearly shows that one can be “cut off” if one does not “continue in His goodness.”

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
2 Peter 2:20-22

Here, St. Peter speaks of the responsibility one has that comes with the knowledge of God. The sinner is compared to a dog returning to its vomit and is represented as one who “escaped the pollutions of the world” and then becomes “entangled in them and overcome.” It seems unlikely for St. Paul to speak of this if it was never meant to be an issue.

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:26-31

St. Paul, again, speaking of the responsibility of knowing the truth. Ones who do not live in the truth are described as “adversaries” who “trampled the Son of God underfoot.” It again seems unlikely that St. Paul would be explaining this if salvation were not at stake.

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
Hebrews 10:35-37

In the last verse, St. Paul repeats the promises of Christ, while explaining the conditions of that promise. First he speaks of the confidence and endurance which has great rewards. In the next verse, St. Paul explains the conditions:

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:38-39

St. Paul indicates that it is, in fact, possible to “draw back” with which lie consequences. One other thing that should be clarified is what Christ thought of this issue:

23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
Matthew 7: 23-26

14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
John 15: 14

Jesus explains what true faith really is. He does not say to “accept Him in your heart” and He does not say that once you’ve accepted Him by doing what He asks you to do, your salvation is forever assured. Perhaps this next parable sums it up pretty well:

45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 "Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 "Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 "But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’
49 "and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 "and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24: 45-51

 

[Jason_1977]

This is really great…I live right around the corner from a Calvary Chapel, and their bookstore is LOADED with anti_Catholic material…very sad, but their goal is to “convert” Catholics…this was really helpful to me in defending my faith. i knew where it was in the Bible, but not Martin Luther’s actual words.

Me too…lol James 2:14-26 The arguement I get back is well…that guy that was crucified along w. Jesus was saved by his faith, so why is that not good enough for me? I said you didnt get crucified with him.