Saved by Faith alone?

[Reuben_J]

It is alright to state one’s opinion and then backs it up with your reasons. The poster did that by giving references from wiki. His reasons were of course denied by the other parties. It is still within Forum’s rule. Both parties contributed to the quagmire and that was why the argument dragged on. Both did not want to give in. Thus both parties are responsible to the state of the discussion to reach this far.

The topic of apostolic succession is nothing new in discussing with Protestants. Some claim to have it and Catholics obviously think they do not. That includes this Catholic.

It is a matter of whether one wants to proceed on with the argument or not. I do not, for obvious reason. It is not very pretty but facts are facts.

I can understand why you are so angry. Maybe because it is not politically correct.

Objectively speaking, it started with post #4 which was acknowledged by the OP in post #5.

The point of contention was Rom 3:28 which formed one of the basis of Sola Fide on whether the word ‘alone’ was added by Luther or not; whether Sola Fide was an invention if the word ‘alone’ was really an addition. You can understand why Lutherans posters here have to defend that but I think Matt did stand his ground. He was replying to their posts. Look like they had to go very deep into history to prove that and I thought that was what the conversation about.

As far as the Biblical verses that are relevant to this topic, they have been given, if that is what you want. Then there is nothing much left. We all can explain those verses, depending on our respective interpretations. But to stop discussing about them, I think, would restrict this argument to go into depth. And it looks like we are quite afraid into going into the deep waters.

As far as I am concerned I heard all these already but what Matt said is something new to me, and I was quite interested. But no worries, it is ok with me. We can stop here.

 

[JonNC]

How about getting back to the thread topic?

Hey Guan,
I often reference the following from James Akin in discussions of Justification by Faith:

Thus the Catholic Church normally expresses the core essences of these virtues like this:

Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us . . . because he is truth itself. (CCC 1814)

Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1817)

Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. (CCC 1822)

In common Catholic usage, faith is thus unconditional belief in what God says, hope is unconditional trust in God, and charity is unconditional love for God. When we are justified, God places all three of these virtues in our hearts. These virtues are given to each of the justified, even though our outward actions do not always reflect them because of the fallen nature we still possess. Thus a person may still have the virtue of faith even if momentarily tempted by doubt, a person may still have the virtue of trust even if scared or tempted by despair, and a person may still have the virtue of charity even if he is often selfish. Only a direct, grave violation (mortal sin against) of one of the virtues destroys the virtue.

As our sanctification progresses, these virtues within us are strengthened by God and we are able to more easily exercise faith, more easily exercise trust, and more easily exercise love. Performing acts of faith, hope, and charity becomes easier as we grow in the Christian life (note the great difficulty new converts often experience in these areas compared to those who have attained a measure of spiritual maturity).

However, so long as one has any measure of faith, hope, and charity, one is in a state of justification. Thus Catholics often use the soteriological slogan that we are “saved by faith, hope, and charity.” This does not disagree with the Protestant soteriological slogan that we are “saved by faith alone” if the term “faith” is understood in the latter to be faith formed by charity or Galatians 5 faith.

One will note, in the definitions of the virtues offered above, the similarity between hope and the way Protestants normally define “faith”; that is, as an unconditional “placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit.” The definition Protestants normally give to “faith” is the definition Catholics use for “hope.”

However, the Protestant idea of faith by no means excludes what Catholics refer to as faith, since every Evangelical would (or should) say that a person with saving faith will believe whatever God says because God is absolutely truthful and incapable of making an error. Thus the Protestant concept of faith normally includes both the Catholic concept of faith and the Catholic concept of hope.

Thus if a Protestant further specifies that saving faith is a faith which “works by charity” then the two soteriological slogans become equivalents. The reason is that a faith which works by charity is a faith which produces acts of love. But a faith which produces acts of love is a faith which includes the virtue of charity, the virtue of charity is the thing that enables us to perform acts of supernatural love in the first place. So a Protestant who says saving faith is a faith which works by charity, as per Galatians 5:6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), is saying the same thing as a Catholic when a Catholic says that we are saved by faith, hope, and charity.

We may put the relationship between the two concepts as follows:

Protestant idea of faith = Catholic idea of faith + Catholic idea of hope + Catholic idea of charity

The three theological virtues of Catholic theology are thus summed up in the (good) Protestant’s idea of the virtue of faith. And the Protestant slogan “salvation by faith alone” becomes the Catholic slogan “salvation by faith, hope, and charity (alone).”

Now, of course, the problem is that one cannot talk about protestants as a monolith. The Lutheran view has significant differences from Reformed one, and many of the American evangelicals’ doctrine is borne of Reformed thinking. Akin alludes to this in the article.

Thoughts?

Jon

 

[rcwitness]

“Now this is a thread I really want to jump into!”

• No one

 

[rcwitness]

By this logic, the Catholic phrase, “faith and works” does not work either.

Jon

Hey Jon, nice one.

I agree! I like "faith that works " a lot better.

Perhaps. The fact of the matter is that the doctrine of “Faith and Works” is referring to works of Charity. Like “Sola Fide”, “Faith and Works” is not a mere phrase, but has proper definition.

The most important common ground we have with Sola Fide is probably our belief that Initial Justification is apart from any good works done. The Catholic faith, I believe, recognizes the inevitable “testing of faith” to remain justified before the Lord. So we agree with Lutherans that we never “earn” justification, but endure in Charity (spiritual and corporal works of mercy) to remain justified in the Faith.

1 Corinthians 15

“Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain.”

Romans 8

"So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."

 

[rcwitness]

Hey Guan,
I often reference the following from James Akin in discussions of Justification by Faith:

Thoughts?

Jon

Yes, good article. Belief is necessary for justification. Not mere belief, but belief that is compelled by the same love the Father has for His Son Jesus. We can even believe and be Baptized, yet without hope and charity, our belief is in vain. I think this was the particular case of Simon the Magician. He believed and was Baptized, yet was not convicted by the Spirit. So he fell away. Yet, I don’t believe he would have been Baptized again!